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Somn please find a new profession to use in your arguments. Us Janitors (and yes there is another one lurking on the boards :lol: ) need a rest.

For the record I agree with Caustic on not thinking subsidies are right. I wish they would do away with all them. I believe in the Free Market, if corn producers go broke then so be it. If corn prices double in price then so be it. I do not have a problem with people getting Cost sharing as long as it is offered, since the Government taketh away and Government giveth. But I think this should be done away with also.

Now back to corn and ethanol. I could care less what it takes to produce it, what corn prices do because of it. As a consumer I am not going to buy it if my Truck gets 19 mpg on Unleaded and 11 mpg on Ethenol. Not unless it is a lot cheaper at the pumps to make up for the fact it is less efficient. If all Americans knew this they would not be supporting Ethenol so feverishly.
 
somn you still can tell the difference in income tax and welfare.
You see the government created the income tax system to control people just like you. You can't have the welfare state if you don't have the other. You are so deep in the welfare system you can not see the forrest for the trees.

The Origin of the Income Tax


By Adam Young

The freedoms won by Americans in 1776 were lost in the revolution of 1913," wrote Frank Chodorov. Indeed, a man's home used to be his castle. The income tax, however, gave the government the keys to every door and the sole right to change the locks.
Today the American people are no longer the master and the government has ceased to be the servant. How could this be? The Revolution fought in the name of the inherent natural rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness promised to enthrone the gains of individualism. Instead, federal taxation bribes the States and individuals to serve the interests of ever-greater submission to the centralized will.

How did tax slavery come to the land of the free?

1913

Richard E. Byrd, speaker of the Virginia House of Delegates, predicted, "a hand from Washington will be stretched out and placed upon every man's business. . . . Heavy fines imposed by distant and unfamiliar tribunals will constantly menace the taxpayer. An army of Federal officials, spies and detectives will descend upon the state. . . ."[14] Pandora had opened the box.

The presidential election of 1912 was contested between three advocates of an income tax. The winner, Woodrow Wilson, after the ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment, called a special session of Congress in April 1913, which proceeded to pass an income tax of 1% on incomes above $3,000 and applied surcharges between 2% and 7% on income from $20,000 to $500,000. A few years later the Supreme Court kissed and blessed progressivity.

The income tax returned as the product of an unholy combine between statist intellectuals with visions of state-sponsored utopias, envious demagogues and the desire by established, wealthy interests to prevent any competition to their place and to offload business costs to an expanding regulatory welfare state.[]

At first the revenue raised by the new income tax was disappointing: only $28 million in 1914. But then it accelerated. $41 million the next year, when the top rate was 7%, and nearly $68 million in 1916, when it was raised to 15%.[16] Eventually more than $1 billion would be pulled in by the income tax during the whole of World War I, when the rates were raised to 67% in 1917 and 77% in 1918, and make the hated tax the permanent feature it has become today.[17]

After the war, the top rate would fall to 73%. In the 1920's it fell to a low of 24% in 1929 but never again got as low as the pre-war rate of 7%. What would Americans do for a 7% rate today, one wonders? Hoover and the Republicans raised the rates to 25% in 1930, then to 63% in 1932. Under the corporate statism of the New Deal, rates leaped to 79% in 1936, 81% in 1940, finally exhausting itself at 94% in 1944–1945.

The lowest rates showed the same appetite, advancing from a 1% rate on incomes below $20,000 in 1915. In 1917, it became 2% up to $2,000, then 6% up to $4,000. By 1941, the lowest rate was 10% on incomes below $2,000. In 1945, this had jumped to 23%. Today it is 10% on annual income up to $7,000; 15% on income below $28,000. The top 10% of all income earners pay 60% of all tax revenue. And the top half pay over 95% of all revenue raised by the federal income tax.[18] The average American now works twenty years for the government simply to pay his taxes.[19]

In 1943, the government began withholding taxes on the advice of Milton Friedman.[20] After the war ended, this method of stealth taxation (and tax increases) continued.

Not until 1964 were the top rates lowered, down to 77%. In 1982, the top rate was lowered to 50% and by the late eighties the rate had been lowered to 28%.[21] But rates were raised again to 31% under George H.W. Bush, and again in 1993 to 39.6% under Clinton. George W. Bush apparently holds as an unshakeable principle that no American should be taxed more than a third of his income by the federal government. John Kerry, should he become president, appears likely to suggest the rates be raised back to the Clinton level.

The income tax lived up to its nature during World War II, devouring American wealth and liberties like a swarm of locusts, where it became the nearly universal tax we know today. In 1940, fewer than fifteen million tax returns were filed. Just ten years later in 1950, the number would be fifty-three million. In 1939 the income tax raised $1 billion. 16 years later it would raise $19 billion.[22] The state had found its most fertile harvests—middle class and working-class taxpayers. As Chief Justice John Marshall remarked, truly "the power to tax involves the power to destroy."

Adjusting for inflation, in the 81 years between the enactment of the income tax in 1913 to 1994, government spending increased 13,592%![23]

The great critic of the income tax, Frank Chodorov wrote "Whichever way you turn this amendment, you come up with the fact that it gives the government a prior lien on all the property produced by its subjects."[24] The United States government "unashamedly proclaims the doctrine of collectivized wealth. . . . That which it does not take is a concession."[25]

It was with great honesty that Frank Chodorov lamented, "America is no longer the America of the Declaration of Independence."[26]
 
The contintental congress proceedings, May 29, 1787:

As they did so, the delegates generally agreed that the legislature should have the unequivocal power to raise revenue, without the need for state ratification. Indeed, when the Committee on Detail enumerated specific legislative powers, the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises" was the first listed, and was adopted without significant objection.

dun
 
dun":2u4qtgsw said:
The contintental congress proceedings, May 29, 1787:

As they did so, the delegates generally agreed that the legislature should have the unequivocal power to raise revenue, without the need for state ratification. Indeed, when the Committee on Detail enumerated specific legislative powers, the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises" was the first listed, and was adopted without significant objection.

dun

Dun I know you where there when it was written, but left out part as it must be uniform as stated in the constitution. It says nothing about taxing to pay for welfare.

Section. 8.


Clause 1:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Clause 2:

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

Clause 3:

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

Clause 4:

To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

Clause 5:

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Clause 6:

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

Clause 7:

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

Clause 8:

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

Clause 9:

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

Clause 10:

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

Clause 11:

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

Clause 12:

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

Clause 13:

To provide and maintain a Navy;

Clause 14:

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

Clause 15:

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Clause 16:

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Clause 17:

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

Clause 18:

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Again Dun it was written to provide protection and monies to raise Armies not to support some corn farmer and others to lazy to work.
Need to read the Sixteenth Admendment and all the rulings.
 
Caustic Burno":t73vv572 said:
Clause 1:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

When this was broken, it caused a Civil War, in a nutshell.
 
backhoeboogie":6f7jsnma said:
Caustic Burno":6f7jsnma said:
Clause 1:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

When this was broken, it caused a Civil War, in a nutshell.

It was broken again in 1913 with the 16th Admendment which the Supreme Court ruled uncostitutional on a half dozen different rulings.
 
Caustic Burno":ap6161cm said:
Dun I know you where there when it was written, but left out part as it must be uniform as stated in the constitution.

Yup, I was sitting right behind you were us youngsters belonged.
I posted it to emonstrate that the whole taxation thing in the US isn;t any new phonomonon. Taxation was one of the root causes of the the Revolutionary War in the first place.
"general Welfare of the United States" could by some be considered preventing rebellion by helping the poor so they don;t infringe on the welbeing of the rest. Gee, this double speak and spin stuff is fun. Maybe I'll become a politician, all I need to do is learn to not speak my mind and get over this pesky honesty thing

dun
 
Caustic, If you and Dun have another one of those Boston Tea Parties, I want in on it.

edit: (I wasn't born when ya'll had that first one)
 
After reading all of that I still ask the direct question to you what entitles you to recieve $1755.00 more than any other American business owner when using identical gross income and expenses numbers? If you need help with the answer it contains 2 words. COWBOY WELFARE.
 
The first time around for ethanol (that I know of) it didn't make it cause the big 3 in Detroit didn't support it. At that time the 10% ruined the fuel economizer value in my Ford. So if you use it you got to replace that part every 5-6 months. The Ford parts people said "Oh well don't use ethanol blends".
This time around they have had several different FFV's and had have for a couple of years. Like everything else when the right people are going to make money it will be done.
 
Somn, You're smart enough to know how to sign a welfare check but not bright enough to answer anyones questions. You have one answer for everything( the janitor pays more than the farmer) How can you say an ag exemption is the same as a subsidy. Are you also calling a homestead ex the same, or tax deductions on your home if you run business from it? read the following very slow to absorb it. Getting a check for doing nothing is welfare, free, something unearned. jp
 
jp":25sftgkj said:
Somn, You're smart enough to know how to sign a welfare check but not bright enough to answer anyones questions. You have one answer for everything( the janitor pays more than the farmer) How can you say an ag exemption is the same as a subsidy. Are you also calling a homestead ex the same, or tax deductions on your home if you run business from it? read the following very slow to absorb it. Getting a check for doing nothing is welfare, free, something unearned. jp

Learn to read jp.

http://financial-dictionary.thefreedict ... om/Subsidy


Also anyone in America owning a home that they live in can claim it as a homestead.

Not everyone owning a home and living in a home gets cowboy welfare. They need to meet the requirments for cowboy welfare. And home ownership is not a requirment for cowboy welfare. Caustic was quick to correct dun for leaving out a part of a papragraph in one of his posts. Here it is.

Section. 8.


Clause 1:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

So tell me where is the uniformity in caustics statement that he is entitled to $1755.00 of cowboy welfare but the janitor isn't. You are a bunch of hypocrits that take and take from the government and shake your finger at anybody else. If you are one of the few not claiming an ag exemption good for you it is your hard earned tax dollars that go to support the welfare cowboy. If you are claiming an ag exemption why do you think caustic deserves more money than the average american business owner?
 
somn":2wpcmyw3 said:
So tell me where is the uniformity in caustics statement that he is entitled to $1755.00 of cowboy welfare but the janitor isn't. You are a bunch of hypocrits that take and take from the government and shake your finger at anybody else. If you are one of the few not claiming an ag exemption good for you it is your hard earned tax dollars that go to support the welfare cowboy. If you are claiming an ag exemption why do you think caustic deserves more money than the average american business owner?

Paying $45K to Uncle Sam in lieu of paying $46K is welfare in your book somn, because we got a $1K tax break.
 
backhoeboogie":1cljs58e said:
somn":1cljs58e said:
So tell me where is the uniformity in caustics statement that he is entitled to $1755.00 of cowboy welfare but the janitor isn't. You are a bunch of hypocrits that take and take from the government and shake your finger at anybody else. If you are one of the few not claiming an ag exemption good for you it is your hard earned tax dollars that go to support the welfare cowboy. If you are claiming an ag exemption why do you think caustic deserves more money than the average american business owner?

Paying $45K to Uncle Sam in lieu of paying $46K is welfare in your book somn, because we got a $1K tax break.


Boogie somn is mad and trying to justify his welfare check in his own mind. He had never thought he was on welfare when he posted about being a Subsidy Man.
His arguement is hollow. He is on welfare the world knows it and his pride is hurt. Funny thing about the truth when it hits you like a baseball bat.
 
Caustic Burno":3sbbxh5d said:
Boogie somn is mad and trying to justify his welfare check in his own mind. He had never thought he was on welfare when he posted about being a Subsidy Man.
His arguement is hollow. He is on welfare the world knows it and his pride is hurt. Funny thing about the truth when it hits you like a baseball bat.

It is kind of hard for me to stay out of it, when he goes calling me a hypocrite. He can't even spell the word.

If babies need food, I want to buy them food. Uncle Sam can have more if it goes to feed hungry babies.
 
Answer the question caustic what entitles you to $1755.00 worth of cowboy welfare?
 
VanC":3qykn92j said:
And around and around we go.

Useless crap neither are right neither are wrong.
But BOTH are to stupid to stop. oh well.
It happens

MD
 
somn":1k1recq7 said:
Answer the question caustic what entitles you to $1755.00 worth of cowboy welfare?

I might give Caustic a hand here, Dug through some of his old quotes and thought I might see which ones he might use in this situation. :lol:

You took an IQ test and the results were negative

Take an aspirin try to get your panties out of knot.

your as confused as a baby in a topless bar

you blow up like an explosion in a steel wool factory

you have a 20 watt bulb in a 100 watt socket

your skull is like a flashlight, a place to hold dead batteries

;-)
 
:lol: :lol: Thanks for the humor aplus. "all of the above" The truth must have really hurt if someone can't get over it.
 
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