Copper Mouth Improved Tom Thumb Bit

[HOSS]

Well I bought my new horse home and have started riding him. He rides well, gaits smooth and so far I am very happy with him. I have noticed that he fights the bit more then I was expecting. Even when he is standing with no rein pressure being exerted on the bit. He tosses and shakes his head like he is trying to spit it out or adjust it. I wonder if the bit that came with the horse is ill fitted or the wrong style for his mouth. I am using a Copper Mouth Improved Tom Thumb Bit. The chain that goes under the chin / lower jaw is not tight which was my initial thought. Could it be that this bit is too narrow or too far forward or back? Could anyone give some advice to this horse novice. If this is the wrong style of bit for my type of riding please suggest alternatives. My horse is an 8 year old spotted saddle horse (gelding). He is 15 hands but muscular built. Most of my riding is done on level ground and on dirt / grass.

 

[MillIronQH]

I'll start out by saying that I hate Tom Thumb bits with a passion. Among their list of faults is they aren't balanced worth a flip and with very little wear will start to pinch the corners of the horses lips. I use some type of snaffle bit or use a bosal 99% of the time.

The bit should be adjusted so there is one or two minor wrinkles in the corners of the horses mouth. You should be able to slip two fingers easily between the curb chain and the jaw. The Spotted Saddle Horse is pretty generic as far as size goes and should handle a 5" bit with no problem.

If you have the bit adjusted properly and he continues to worry it I'd get his teeth checked and check for any sores or lesions in his mouth. Z

 

[milkmaid]

Been awhile since I've worked with Western bits (ridden English for the past 5 years). Isn't this the one with shanks and a snaffle mouthpiece?

If so, what I recall from my Western riding is that it's actually a more severe bit than your spade, due to the way it puts pressure on the lower jaw. Learned that from an old horse trainer who was invited to talk about bits to my 4H class one day.

 

[MillIronQH]

http://www.statelinetack.com/global/pro ... &Ne=156695

Sorry about the numbers. Stateline tends to get carried away.

There are many, many bits more severe then a spade. In fact by design the really well made spades are milder then most other types for the simple reason they distribute the pressure over a larger area. That does not mean they should be turned over to someone that doesn't understand the proper use. A common ring snaffle can be severe in the wrong hands.Z

 

[HOSS]

http://www.statelinetack.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441773828&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302029209&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302024175&bmUID=1167773594965&itemNo=2&Ntt=tom+thumb&In=Horse&previousText=tom+thumb&N=156695&Ne=156695

Sorry about the numbers. Stateline tends to get carried away.

There are many, many bits more severe then a spade. In fact by design the really well made spades are milder then most other types for the simple reason they distribute the pressure over a larger area. That does not mean they should be turned over to someone that doesn't understand the proper use. A common ring snaffle can be severe in the wrong hands.Z

MillIronQH, upon looking at the picture that is in your link I must have been told wrong about the type of bit I am using. It is a snaffle with the same type of leverage arms but the two jointed cross pieces are made from what appears to be heavy, twisted copper wire.

 

[oscar p]

Have you checked to see if has wolf teeth? They will be in front of the upper molars. Not all horses will have them.

 

[MillIronQH]

MillIronQH, upon looking at the picture that is in your link I must have been told wrong about the type of bit I am using. It is a snaffle with the same type of leverage arms but the two jointed cross pieces are made from what appears to be heavy, twisted copper wire.

Please very carefully detach that bit from your headstall and reins and take it out and bury it very, very deep. All it's good for is tearing up a horses mouth. Twisted wire snaffles were originally made to be used as mule bits. The same thing with chain bits. It gets even worse when you add shanks and a curb chain. If that is the bit your horse was being ridden with check the corners of his mouth and accross his tounge for scar tissue. That could be the reason for the way he's acting. You might want to think about getting completely out of his mouth for a while. Try either a side pull or if you can find one a good quality short shanked mechanical hackamore witha padded nose band.

Now a lesson in Bits 101. That bit is not a snaffle bit It is a broken mouth curb bit. Snaffle bits do not have shanks, use leverage or have any type of strap or chain under the jaw. A straight bar ring bit like some people use for driving is a snaffle. That same mouth with shanks is a curb bit. If you go hunting you can probably find 10,000 different types of bits. About 9500 of them are worthless. They are "gimmick" bits. Many of them have been designed to sell to the unknowing novice in whose inexperienced hands they've probably ruined more good horses the you could count. If you walk into a big name trainers tack room you might see fifty or more bridles hanging on the wall but if you pin him or her down they probably don't use but maybe 6 of them with any regularity and maybe a dozen of them total.Z

 

[msscamp]

I am using a Copper Mouth Improved Tom Thumb Bit. The chain that goes under the chin / lower jaw is not tight which was my initial thought. Could it be that this bit is too narrow or too far forward or back? Could anyone give some advice to this horse novice. If this is the wrong style of bit for my type of riding please suggest alternatives. My horse is an 8 year old spotted saddle horse (gelding). He is 15 hands but muscular built. Most of my riding is done on level ground and on dirt / grass.

I dislike Tom Thumb bits because there are too many actions going on at the same time, and because they tend to be a harsh bit that can pinch. I would suggest trying a low port curb bit, or some sort of straight snaffle such as an O-Ring or D-Ring. I would also suggest replacing the chain chin-strap with a plastic covered cable chin strap or a piece of leather. A chain chin strap can be a bit harsh when there is an inexperienced rider holding the reins.

 

[hayray]

Well I bought my new horse home and have started riding him. He rides well, gaits smooth and so far I am very happy with him. I have noticed that he fights the bit more then I was expecting. Even when he is standing with no rein pressure being exerted on the bit. He tosses and shakes his head like he is trying to spit it out or adjust it. I wonder if the bit that came with the horse is ill fitted or the wrong style for his mouth. I am using a Copper Mouth Improved Tom Thumb Bit. The chain that goes under the chin / lower jaw is not tight which was my initial thought. Could it be that this bit is too narrow or too far forward or back? Could anyone give some advice to this horse novice. If this is the wrong style of bit for my type of riding please suggest alternatives. My horse is an 8 year old spotted saddle horse (gelding). He is 15 hands but muscular built. Most of my riding is done on level ground and on dirt / grass.

The Tom Thumb is hard to adjust correctly because it acts so contradictory to a true snaffle or a curb. At one position it is too high in the mouth for the curb effect and then too low for a snaffle, ends up with a lot of nut-crackering on the toungue and bars. I would get a snaffle or a curb and then adjust to the guidlines of how each should be adjusted. Snaffle sits high in the mouth at the corners of the cheek with one or two wrinkles but should not be high enough to touch any molars and not too low were it bumps the tusk. Proper width should sit in the mouth at about a 65 degree angle or larger with this adjustment.
The curb sits lower on the jaw between the molars and the tusk. If it is too low the horses toungue will play with the bit and this will be noticed by excessive salivating. After that have a vet check out for wolf teeth or sharp edges on the teeth, but for sure ditch the Tom Thumb, that is one of the most mis-understood bits there are.

 

[HOSS]

I should have mentioned in my original post that the bit has double cross pieces that are heavy, twisted copper wire. (total of 4 seperate wire pieces) Sort of a double snaffle so to speak with about 7" long side shanks. I put the bit in the truck this morning so I can look for an alternate later this afternoon.

 

[clampitt]

What you have is a double twisted mouth snaffle bit,loose sides.Trammell an several others made one 30yrs ago I had one and tryed it on a bunch of horses.Jim made really well made bits,this just wasn't a good design at all I never found a horse of any kind I could use it on they all fought it to some degree or another.If you keep any contact with ones mouth you really have problems.It breakes in two places in their mouth,mine one of the mouth pieces was just a tad longer than the other and when you pulled one sticks straight into the roof of the mouth the other pulled and pinched the tongue,and the side where the mouth piece was attached pinched the corners even with bit guards it hurt..Kind of like a pencil point only twice,The leverage in bits is in the purchase not all in the shank length.Any ring bit was originally on a work bridle.EVERY cutter,reiner,roper,barrel horse trainer I ever worked for or know uses twisted wire ring bits at some time and all different size mouth pieces.In the training process.But,Its like any thing else if they are in good hands they work fine.In bad hands a halter is severe.I have a hackamoure I make that I will keep on one nearly a year.And swap out between it and a ring bit.I have some ring work snaffles that are smooth and twisted that are around 100 yrs old the metal in them is one of the reasons they work like they do.All good hand mades now and then were made from sweet iron.Not stainless and mild steel now isn't the same.Wagon axels and springs were of a sweet iron.The forks on a sulky rake make good ones as well the older and better bit makers today hunt them up and buy them for the metal.Thats kinda off the subject though.I have an English snaffle I use a good bit it is a shank bit and its called a Pellem bit there is two places for a set of reins one at the bottom of the shank and one where the mouth piece and side is attached workes like a ring bit there.The mouth piece has a slight bend in it to fit the horses mouth.It lays in really nice and the metal is a little green in color and will make ones mouth wet and keep it that way.Try one of those,and put your reins in both places and see what works better.You a can even take a leather strap and attach it at the bottom of the bit and in the place where the ring is at the mouth piece and attach your reins in the middle and you have a little leverage and a little pull to the side as well on some that is a good transision from a ring bit to a leverage type bit with out hurting them.Like was said I have lot of bits and all are very well made.Some only worked on one horse and went with them.Some never worked and went in the scrap pile.I have a chain mouth piece Mike Beers I use on most roping horses and barrel horses I love it will pick up a horses front end and set them down correct and straight I have never had done fight it at all.But,There is that word,But Its in the hands.Try that Pellem and a curb strap first then if need a chain curb.And your reins in different places.Most English type ridden horses have some contact with the mouth at all times, need to use a bit designed for that desipline.If there is a hunter jumper or dressage barn near you visit with them.Do have his teeth checked though if they need attention nothing will work right.I bet with a little change you have a nice horse.

 

[HOSS]

I bought a single snaffle bit with stainless steel and copper rollers. Tack shop owner says it should be much easier on the horse than the double twisted wire snaffle that I was using. I am resigned to this process taking some experimentation so if this one does not work then I will try another type until I find one that suits the horse. I am also having the teeth checked soon. Thanks for all of the help so far.

 

[chippie]

Here is a link to a good article by Mark Rashid which explains why a Tom Thumb bit (or broken mouth curb bits) do not work well.

It will also explain why your horse acted like it did.

I found it to be very helpful.


http://www.todayshorse.com/Articles/TroublewithTomThumb.htm