Commercial Bull Buyers

[MikeC]

I appreciate all of the comments here and some of you really take your bull buying serious, as it should be. It is the most important purchase for your future cattleherd.

Having said that, I would really like to see producers take a more proactive stance in bull selection.

Most bull buyers I see (not you guys) generally show up at a sale 30 minutes before sale time and buy the biggest, fattest bull they can afford.

1-Go by and visit the seedstock producers in your area and look the calves over while sucking their mamas and write down the numbers of the calves that really catch your eye. Go back again shortly after weaning and look the crowd over again. You might be surprised at the change. And be dang sure to see those calves again as yearlings because this is usually what your finished calves will look like.

2-Chances are that a good bull will be raised in your area because of AI and the competition they are experiencing. Just because you buy from a big name producer 4 states away does not mean that their bulls are better.

3-Remember, no one knows a bull better than the man that raised him. 9 times out of 10 you might be better off telling him what you are shooting for and let him pick you a bull. That puts him under the gun because he wants to keep your business. Invite him to come look at your cows.

4-Please stay away from the regular sale barn bulls. I have a neighbor who is going through a mess with "Trich" right now. He didn't get it from a sale barn, but if he has to sell his bulls, they will go to there.

Thanks for all your comments.

 

[BRG]

In the last few bull sales we have held, I have really noticed a change in the way customers buy. It wasn't very long ago that they all showed up and sat at the ring and purchased bulls. Now I would say at least 75% of the bulls sold went to buyers that did some studying early(by either visiting with us or viewing by video or personally) and only bid on the bulls that they picked out. It used to be that the beginning of the sale order was the top end and the middle started to get softer and by the end came, it was real tough. Now it doesn't matter where the real good bulls are in the sale order, the cowboys always find him. I am actually placing some of the best ones in the middle somewhere so it sparks the excitement a little again.

I think it is great that our commercial customers are taking a more active role in buying their bulls.

 

[dun]

2-Chances are that a good bull will be raised in your area because of AI and the competition they are experiencing. Just because you buy from a big name producer 4 states away does not mean that their bulls are better.

And those long distance bulls may or may not be compatible with your forage, especially if it's KY31

dun

 

[badroute]

HCF,

I generally dont want milk epd over 20. In the northern plains where I am it is much more profitable running beef cows versus dairy cows which is what is starting to happen with some bulls having milk epds in the high 20's and low 30's.

To be truthful I have gone back to some of the older angus bloodlines in order to find bulls that dont have outrageous milk, ww and yw epds.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

HCF,

I generally dont want milk epd over 20. In the northern plains where I am it is much more profitable running beef cows versus dairy cows which is what is starting to happen with some bulls having milk epds in the high 20's and low 30's.

To be truthful I have gone back to some of the older angus bloodlines in order to find bulls that dont have outrageous milk, ww and yw epds.

badroute - You are exactly on target, my friend! Just because some hot-shot breeder claims new and improved genetics doesn't mean the progeny will perform to that end. "Moderation in everything" is more than just a catch phrase!

DOC HARRIS

 

[1848]

HCF,

I generally dont want milk epd over 20. In the northern plains where I am it is much more profitable running beef cows versus dairy cows which is what is starting to happen with some bulls having milk epds in the high 20's and low 30's.

To be truthful I have gone back to some of the older angus bloodlines in order to find bulls that dont have outrageous milk, ww and yw epds.

badroute - You are exactly on target, my friend! Just because some hot-shot breeder claims new and improved genetics doesn't mean the progeny will perform to that end. "Moderation in everything" is more than just a catch phrase!

DOC HARRIS

Doc,

Do believe in moderation of the bull side of it too?...or do you use a larger frame bull?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

HCF,

I generally dont want milk epd over 20. In the northern plains where I am it is much more profitable running beef cows versus dairy cows which is what is starting to happen with some bulls having milk epds in the high 20's and low 30's.

To be truthful I have gone back to some of the older angus bloodlines in order to find bulls that dont have outrageous milk, ww and yw epds.

badroute - You are exactly on target, my friend! Just because some hot-shot breeder claims new and improved genetics doesn't mean the progeny will perform to that end. "Moderation in everything" is more than just a catch phrase!

DOC HARRIS

Doc,

Do believe in moderation of the bull side of it too?...or do you use a larger frame bull?

1848- Genetics are genetics. Phenotype is phenotype. In order for a balance of the two factors to be optimal, you have to view the animal in question, (or 'herd' in question) as an entire entity - not just a collection of figures and/or pictures. Balance and moderation will establish a 'standard' over time, and allow the breeder to be able to manipulate his selection of Bulls and/ or replacement females to sustain his particular desires for his herd. If he discovers that his frame scores are getting out of line for what he wants he instantly knows what to search for in modifying that discrepancy. Inasmuch as the bull provides the majority of your seedstock's genetics, that selection is very critical for your future production for several years, if you retain heifers for replacements. I am sure that you can see how an understanding of EPD's is important in maintaining a BALANCE of Genotype AND Phenotype.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Badlands]

jscunn:

Bending the curve? Now the tough part is finding the bulls with MW EPD accuracy high enough to trust. Actually not real tough, it's just tough when you start ruling out bulls based on certain pedigrees.

badroute:

Exactly right, my partner at home in MT is beginning to have trouble finding bulls that are "right" for milk. It keeps sneaking up, up, up.

Badlands

 

[smnherf]

Some very good thoughts and advice on this thread have been shared by many. I am thrilled that many of you do the homewrok ahead of time and know what you want. I sell privately and it is hard to sell a bull to someone who doesn't know what he wants or even what he needs.

Here are my selection criteria for what it is worth.

I use every bit of information I can get my hands on from geneotype to epds to actual performance data and ratios to ultrasound data. The data has to be right or close before I will go see the bull. As a seedstock provider, I feel it all has relevance in my operation and I make the selection based on how this fits in with the goals of my operation. The biggest thing is to make the data conform to my standards for phenotype. I am not afraid to push the higher performing epds, provided they fit my phenotype. Thick, easy fleshing, low maintenace trouble free cattle, with a moderate amount of mature weight is the goal.

I am relatively new to the bull business, but have spent my entire lifetime in the commercial cattle business. Many of my customers are demanding more and more information. I tend to give them the same informaiton I would want when selecting bulls. If I don't get the information I need, I move on, as I would expect the commercial bull buyers to do.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned at least for my criteria in bull selection is that I like to use bulls that are sired by proven bulls out of proven dams. I want them to have calves on the ground, steers hung on the rail and daughters with a couple of calf crops under their belt. The bulls that have a pedigree full of unproven genetics scares me away pretty fast. Especially if they are promoted as show cattle. They may be the best cattle in the world, but I will let someone else make the mistakes if they aren't. I can't afford to take steps backwards even if I am not always on the cutting edge with the newest and hottest genetics out there.


The mother needs to have had 4 or 5 calves at least and I want to know if the production of the bulls grandmother too.

I am not totally against using a young bull on a limited basis, as I did with M326, but he has to have the right phenotype, have the right data, be out of a proven sire, dam and granddam and backed by a good outfit.

Have a good day,

Brian

 

[1848]

HCF,

I generally dont want milk epd over 20. In the northern plains where I am it is much more profitable running beef cows versus dairy cows which is what is starting to happen with some bulls having milk epds in the high 20's and low 30's.

To be truthful I have gone back to some of the older angus bloodlines in order to find bulls that dont have outrageous milk, ww and yw epds.

badroute - You are exactly on target, my friend! Just because some hot-shot breeder claims new and improved genetics doesn't mean the progeny will perform to that end. "Moderation in everything" is more than just a catch phrase!

DOC HARRIS

Doc,

Do believe in moderation of the bull side of it too?...or do you use a larger frame bull?

1848- Genetics are genetics. Phenotype is phenotype. In order for a balance of the two factors to be optimal, you have to view the animal in question, (or 'herd' in question) as an entire entity - not just a collection of figures and/or pictures. Balance and moderation will establish a 'standard' over time, and allow the breeder to be able to manipulate his selection of Bulls and/ or replacement females to sustain his particular desires for his herd. If he discovers that his frame scores are getting out of line for what he wants he instantly knows what to search for in modifying that discrepancy. Inasmuch as the bull provides the majority of your seedstock's genetics, that selection is very critical for your future production for several years, if you retain heifers for replacements. I am sure that you can see how an understanding of EPD's is important in maintaining a BALANCE of Genotype AND Phenotype.

DOC HARRIS

Thanks, maybe SRR will read this. It's not always about larger frame. ;-)

 

[Hill Creek Farm]

HCF,

I generally dont want milk epd over 20. In the northern plains where I am it is much more profitable running beef cows versus dairy cows which is what is starting to happen with some bulls having milk epds in the high 20's and low 30's.

To be truthful I have gone back to some of the older angus bloodlines in order to find bulls that dont have outrageous milk, ww and yw epds.

I understand what you are saying.

 

[Hill Creek Farm]

HCF,

I generally dont want milk epd over 20. In the northern plains where I am it is much more profitable running beef cows versus dairy cows which is what is starting to happen with some bulls having milk epds in the high 20's and low 30's.

To be truthful I have gone back to some of the older angus bloodlines in order to find bulls that dont have outrageous milk, ww and yw epds.

badroute - You are exactly on target, my friend! Just because some hot-shot breeder claims new and improved genetics doesn't mean the progeny will perform to that end. "Moderation in everything" is more than just a catch phrase!

DOC HARRIS

I agree DOC!