linebreeding or inbreeding is a tool primarily for breeders of parentstock (usually registered) in order to concentrate desirable traits (fix them) and expose undesirable traits (lethal recessives such as AM or dwarfism for example) so that when these parent animals are used by commercial breeders a)they pass on the desirable traits with greater consistency than an outcross and b) the defects do not get passed on to the commercial sector because the conscientious registered breeder has eliminated them from the herd (you can add a 'yeah, right!' to that last statement if you wish ;-) :roll: ) There is no good economic reason for a commercial herd to linebreed, you are giving up hybrid vigor in doing so, UNLESS you feel the registered parentstock you have been using is failing to deliver the required consistency in your herd.
Close Breeding
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SRBeef
Well-known member
robert":2ul4ig4q said:
I have to respectfully disagree. In my small startup herd put together with Herefords from a number of different sources, I see enormous differences between cows, especially being a data fanatic as I am. I use outside registered bulls (Huth bulls) but have also kept a home grown bull from a very good epd Huth bull (T021) crossed with my best cow. This one $600 purchased old commercial cow is like a gold mine of the traits that I need in my system. You just can't go out and buy a cow with this combination of traits. I am using careful crosses of this retained bull with my other cow families to spread this cows genes through my herd. I have pretty much given up on the idea of buying females. I am going to expand using my own females and Huth bulls. This retained bull is my cow maker. Fwiw. Jim
SRBeef
Well-known member
" There is no good economic reason for a commercial herd to linebreed"
This is what I am disagreeing with. I am breeding this retained bull to a number of his half sisters to both concentrate the traits of his sire and spread the genes of his dam. His sire has some 9126J, 3008 and other genetics I would like to preserve.
Jim
This is what I am disagreeing with. I am breeding this retained bull to a number of his half sisters to both concentrate the traits of his sire and spread the genes of his dam. His sire has some 9126J, 3008 and other genetics I would like to preserve.
Jim
SRBeef":25rxyyzo said:
you cut the last part of my statement out, it read simply "UNLESS you feel the registered parentstock you have been using is failing to deliver the required consistency in your herd." which apparently is the case as you stated you have retained a bull for the express purpose of making cows.
cmf1
Well-known member
Out of curiosity I've been reading a lot of the "inbreeding/linebreeding" posts on the site and have noticed that half sib x, and sire x daughter matings are discussed mostly.
I have not been able to find much info on son x dam, nephew x aunt type matings (anecdotal nor empirical).
I would think that crosses like this would happen more, or be guarded against more, than what available info suggests in closed/tight herd operations.
Is it because of a human morality projection or because it would compound the inbreeding coefficient more than the half sib x, and sire x daughter.
I'm trying to familiarize myself with the ICO equation formula but...Yikes!
I'll have to get tutoring from someone before I'm comfortable putting it in to practice.
I have not been able to find much info on son x dam, nephew x aunt type matings (anecdotal nor empirical).
I would think that crosses like this would happen more, or be guarded against more, than what available info suggests in closed/tight herd operations.
Is it because of a human morality projection or because it would compound the inbreeding coefficient more than the half sib x, and sire x daughter.
I'm trying to familiarize myself with the ICO equation formula but...Yikes!
I'll have to get tutoring from someone before I'm comfortable putting it in to practice.
I think most of the resistance to linebreeding/inbreeding comes from a human morality standpoint. Sir Charles McCombie, master breeder and one of the 3 major founders of the Aberdeen Angus breed utilized linebreeding to a great extent to fix type but in his writings he say's that 'breeding in and in is not only against nature it is against God'. When you reduce the diversity within the genepool you are increasing the homozygosity of all traits, good and bad, so while desirable types and traits will emerge so also will terminal recessives (like AM etc) linebreeding is about exposing the good and the bad, eliminating the bad and continuing with the ones that fit your ideal.
In our own herd we have made some brother/sister matings, many where the ancestor we wish to accentuate is within 3 generations top and bottom, and also stacking in some sires who have worked particularly well for us on both sides through direct or maternal progeny matings.
In our own herd we have made some brother/sister matings, many where the ancestor we wish to accentuate is within 3 generations top and bottom, and also stacking in some sires who have worked particularly well for us on both sides through direct or maternal progeny matings.
fargus
Well-known member
If you do the COI calculations, aunt x nephew, uncle x niece, grandsire to grandaughter crosses all "crunch" pretty hard on the common ancestor, but it doesn't approach the level of a half-sib or parent to off-spring cross.
I know of some people that won't linebreed on females, only males. (I realize that in doing this you are stacking up the male's dam in a pedigree, but the concept is you always "crunch" on a male first.) I don't know why, and I suspect this is an anecdotal "old wives tale." We are kicking around the idea of doing some half-sib crosses here next year, and some of them would also go back to the same cow on the bottom side of the pedigree. I think it is mainly human morals that inhibits people from line-breeding, but also the experience that some will have had of accidentally inbreeding, and having to cull defective progeny. If your first experience is bad, it usually takes a long time to go back and do it again.
The article on the Line One and Prospector Herefords is well-written, and mentions something that I believe is important. Neither line-breeding, nor out-crossing by themselves is necessarily the best breeding system. If you are fortunate enough to start with a group of foundation animals that among them possess ALL the traits you desire, then in theory you can linebreed forever with careful selection. The article does mention that genetic progress per generation slows if all you do is linebreed. The occasional out-cross to unrelated but similar typed animals keeps the line "fresh" and allows you to add traits in, without losing the consistency of your original line.
For those that have been line-breeding for some time, do you have a rule of thumb that you use for when is the right time to introduce fresh genetics? Or is it more of a gut feeling, like you've hit a bit of a wall and need a boost to continue to make progress?
I know of some people that won't linebreed on females, only males. (I realize that in doing this you are stacking up the male's dam in a pedigree, but the concept is you always "crunch" on a male first.) I don't know why, and I suspect this is an anecdotal "old wives tale." We are kicking around the idea of doing some half-sib crosses here next year, and some of them would also go back to the same cow on the bottom side of the pedigree. I think it is mainly human morals that inhibits people from line-breeding, but also the experience that some will have had of accidentally inbreeding, and having to cull defective progeny. If your first experience is bad, it usually takes a long time to go back and do it again.
The article on the Line One and Prospector Herefords is well-written, and mentions something that I believe is important. Neither line-breeding, nor out-crossing by themselves is necessarily the best breeding system. If you are fortunate enough to start with a group of foundation animals that among them possess ALL the traits you desire, then in theory you can linebreed forever with careful selection. The article does mention that genetic progress per generation slows if all you do is linebreed. The occasional out-cross to unrelated but similar typed animals keeps the line "fresh" and allows you to add traits in, without losing the consistency of your original line.
For those that have been line-breeding for some time, do you have a rule of thumb that you use for when is the right time to introduce fresh genetics? Or is it more of a gut feeling, like you've hit a bit of a wall and need a boost to continue to make progress?
lynnmcmahan
Well-known member
If it works it's called line breeding if it don't work it's called cross breeding.
fitz
Well-known member
lynnmcmahan":bgzq3nqp said:
cross breeding:
fitz
Loch Valley Fold
Well-known member
We've line bred our dairy cows, have done so since we started milking the only problem we've found is that now when we use our "Old Bull" in the breeding program his calves are a more prone to respiratory problems & tend not to do so well, however his grandsons are producing offspring which are healthy fit calves, so we're happy to let the Old Bull retire (he's always good for backup should we need him) the cows suit our conditions & produce more milk & butterfat & protein than "brought in" cattle do
Carnivore
Well-known member
Father, Daughter, Grand Daughter/Daughter.
This was an experiment as I had a very nice heifer from the Sire, and wanted to see what kind of offspring the two produced. So far, so good. Calf is one day old in the pic, two days old now.
I have been reading up on the subject, and decided to throw the dice.
This was an experiment as I had a very nice heifer from the Sire, and wanted to see what kind of offspring the two produced. So far, so good. Calf is one day old in the pic, two days old now.
I have been reading up on the subject, and decided to throw the dice.
Loch Valley Fold
Well-known member
Lol if you mean by me its been a long time getting back :lol: :lol:
angusdave63
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talking about line breeding i am looking at some heifers to breed. to a bull i have here he is the grandson of the heifers sire, is this to close the calves will have the same bull for a great grand sire on top and grandsire bottom i would think they would be far enough apart i should not have any problems. thanks David
Nesikep
Well-known member
Well, I think linebreeding in a small herd may be more of a necessity than a choice, since replacing a perfectly good bull every 2 years is not good for the bank account, and you also don't get to see how that bull's offspring perform in real life by the time you get rid of him. Thus, us have 22 cows, we often breed daughter to father, and have kept a few resulting heifers (3/4 shorthorn) and I can definitely say those heifers looked great at weaning time, but don't produce the milk their mothers did (between 2 of these heifers from 2 fullblooded sister cows), so I can say hybrid vigour is GONE in the resulting cow. The other 2 hiefers, also 3/4 shorthorn and from the same 2 cows performed better on their first calf than the linebred ones did on their second (or really close). Thus I don't fancy keeping linebred heifers since I have experienced a lack of later-age growth and milk production in them, but it won't prevent me from breeding a bull to his daughters from a beef standpoint. 2 years ago we kept a bull calf from the same dam as these heifers, and we'll see what he bred this year and how that works. This coming spring we will have 2 GV heifers bred to their GV father and I'm curious to see how the calves will look in the fall. This coming year I have 4 more 1/2 GV heifers, which with the 2 that are calving this year may breed them to the 3/4 shorthorn bull, which if my memory serves correctly would be related by being both his and the heifers grandfather, which is very little relation.
Before I wear out my keyboard, I'll close with saying that for a beef operation, there's no reason not to if the calves are terminal anyhow, with the exception of a probably lack of hybrid vigor, and a small operation doesn't need to be SCARED of it, we've probably had over 100 linebred calves and none showed any defects at all
Before I wear out my keyboard, I'll close with saying that for a beef operation, there's no reason not to if the calves are terminal anyhow, with the exception of a probably lack of hybrid vigor, and a small operation doesn't need to be SCARED of it, we've probably had over 100 linebred calves and none showed any defects at all
SRBeef
Well-known member
Thanks for the interesting post on your experience, Nesikep.
I am running into the same problem of a small herd - you just can not afford to go out and buy a new bull every two year to breed 25 cows. Especially if you have a good bull you like and produces good calves for your system.
A father/daughter mating gives you a calf that is 75% the bull 25% the original cow if I am thinking correctly. That's a bit much for me although obviously it can work out as it has for you esp for terminal calves.
However I am trying to increase my herd through retaining most of my heifers. I have saved a homegrown bull out of my best cow and am breeding him to his half sisters This gives you a calf that is 50% the original very good purchased bull, 25% my best cow and 25% another cow. I am hoping this gradually improves my herd. I will continue to use a good registered bull but not on his daughters. fwiw.
Jim
I am running into the same problem of a small herd - you just can not afford to go out and buy a new bull every two year to breed 25 cows. Especially if you have a good bull you like and produces good calves for your system.
A father/daughter mating gives you a calf that is 75% the bull 25% the original cow if I am thinking correctly. That's a bit much for me although obviously it can work out as it has for you esp for terminal calves.
However I am trying to increase my herd through retaining most of my heifers. I have saved a homegrown bull out of my best cow and am breeding him to his half sisters This gives you a calf that is 50% the original very good purchased bull, 25% my best cow and 25% another cow. I am hoping this gradually improves my herd. I will continue to use a good registered bull but not on his daughters. fwiw.
Jim
