Close Breeding

[HDRider]

What is the result if a Bull is allowed to breed with its offspring?

 

[Kathie in Thorp]

Incest.

 

[cross_7]

i've seen little dwarf calves and i've also seen no ill effects, so no way to really know until they calve.
some call it line breeding but usally not that close.

 

[Mid South Guy]

That is inbreeding, the most intense form. The result is a concentration of the genes and traits of the common parent. The good and bad. Often what happens is there are hidden bad traits that surface with the concentration, i.e. dwarfism.

 

[Kathie in Thorp]

What about breeding half sibs -- both sired by the same bull? Just curious . . . .

 

[Floyd]

Called line breeding if it works. Inbreeding if it doesn't.

Some folks advertise line bred 1/4 horses.

Have heard father daughter better than mother son.

 

[dun]

The results are the same for either scenerio - CALVES!

 

[Mid South Guy]

What about breeding half sibs -- both sired by the same bull? Just curious . . . .

I may be wrong, but I've always understood inbreeding to be any mating of half siblings or closer. Linebreeding, allthough considered a form of inbreeding, is the mating of more distant relatives. The results and goals are the same. The concentration of the genes and traits of the common ancestor(s).

 

[Lucky_P]

Might be frowned upon by some folks, but that's mainly because they're applying human 'moral' judgements to a situation where they really have no bearing.
In a commercial herd, I see no problem with sire-daughter matings - other than the fact that, IF there are any genetic defects or undesirable traits, they'll be more likely to be expressed. But, by the same token, desirable traits will also be concentrated in the offspring of those resulting calves.
Additionally, if it's a small herd, with low cow numbers only necessitating one bull, you can extend the useful life of your herd bull - instead of only being able to use him for 2 or 3 seasons, you can get 5-6 or more out of him before you need to replace him.
For example, I really like the calves my current clean-up bull throws; nice daughters with good disposition, growthy steers. If some of his daughters don't stick to their AI service, and I get a double-bred 'Gary' heifer as a result, I don't necessarily discriminate against her when it comes time to decide whether to retain that heifer or to send her to the salebarn. Steers are going on somebody's plate anyway, and no one much cares who their daddy is...

Prior to the advent of DNA testing, the only way to prove that a bull was 'defect-free' was to breed him to 35 of his daughters - if all offspring were 'normal', there was a 99+% likelihood that the bull did not carry any genetic defect of concern.

If you look back at virtually all breeds of cattle, dogs, horses, etc., you will find exceptional individuals that were the result of sire-daughter matings or half-sib matings(N Bar Emulation EXT, for example), etc. Some breeders look at those matings as a way to potentially 'fix'(as in solidify, not as in repair) desirable genetic traits.

 

[HDRider]

Might be frowned upon by some folks, but that's mainly because they're applying human 'moral' judgements to a situation where they really have no bearing.
In a commercial herd, I see no problem with sire-daughter matings - other than the fact that, IF there are any genetic defects or undesirable traits, they'll be more likely to be expressed. But, by the same token, desirable traits will also be concentrated in the offspring of those resulting calves.
Additionally, if it's a small herd, with low cow numbers only necessitating one bull, you can extend the useful life of your herd bull - instead of only being able to use him for 2 or 3 seasons, you can get 5-6 or more out of him before you need to replace him.
For example, I really like the calves my current clean-up bull throws; nice daughters with good disposition, growthy steers. If some of his daughters don't stick to their AI service, and I get a double-bred 'Gary' heifer as a result, I don't necessarily discriminate against her when it comes time to decide whether to retain that heifer or to send her to the salebarn. Steers are going on somebody's plate anyway, and no one much cares who their daddy is...

Prior to the advent of DNA testing, the only way to prove that a bull was 'defect-free' was to breed him to 35 of his daughters - if all offspring were 'normal', there was a 99+% likelihood that the bull did not carry any genetic defect of concern.

If you look back at virtually all breeds of cattle, dogs, horses, etc., you will find exceptional individuals that were the result of sire-daughter matings or half-sib matings(N Bar Emulation EXT, for example), etc. Some breeders look at those matings as a way to potentially 'fix'(as in solidify, not as in repair) desirable genetic traits.

I was hoping to hear someone with a logical answer that sifted out emotion. Thanks for that.

I would try to limit close breeding, but it may happen and the results might be telling.

 

[Kathie in Thorp]

HDRIder -- I was joking about "incest," because I didn't have anything wise to tell you. But what the smart guys on here say, follow that.

 

[cow pollinater]

If you were to go outcross adamently every chance you got and then allowed a father-daughter mating every once in a while, I'd be willing to bet over time your inbreeding coefficient would be similar to herds that didn't pay any attention to outcrossing.

 

[Kathie in Thorp]

If you were to go outcross adamently every chance you got and then allowed a father-daughter mating every once in a while, I'd be willing to bet over time your inbreeding coefficient would be similar to herds that didn't pay any attention to outcrossing.

I'm looking at a "bred" British White cow now. Her sire, and the bull's sire of her in utero calf, are the same guy, so she's bred to her 1/2 brother. And the grandpa bull has relatives on our place. BUT, we AI, so that probably isn't an issue for us, except to see what the line-bred/in-bred resulting calf is, if I buy that cow.

 

[Lucky_P]

I linebred, very closely, to a particular Fleckvieh sire, through most of the '90s and early 2000s. Had no defects pop up, but think I was experiencing some 'inbreeding suppression' by the time I abandoned that experiment - but moved away from it mainly because I'd finally 'seen the light' - that I needed black hides on my sale calves, and was getting clobbered on the red/yellow/spotted critters when they went to the salebarn.

Had, before we finished, a few cows that were sired by their full brother, who was also their grandsire. Or something like that...kind of approaching that old country song, "I'm my own Grandpa".
Probably carried it too far, and I won't likely repeat anything like that again; no defective calves, but along the way, I think I lost muscle, and some were a bit too fine-boned to suit me.

 

[KNERSIE]

Kathie, the halfsib matings are the foundation cross for most linebreeding programs and the common parent's influence will still be 50% as it would be if the parents were completely unrelated. I am breeding like this on purpose and like the results, I'm sure some might agree its working for me and to others it will just be more plain old poll herefords...

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

From what I've seen of your cattle in your pics here Knersie I'd say you've got it just about figured out.

 

[KNERSIE]

Thanks, but I doubt anyone will ever have it figured out.

 

[SRBeef]

Here is a link which provides what I feel is a fairly clear and interesting description of cattle line breeding:

http://www.witherspoonsherefords.com/WNHWEB11.HTM

Jim

 

[HomePlaceAngus]

I've seen fantastic results (daughter of 036 bred to 036) and I have seen desaster results of 1/2 brother and sister. I have been told by persons in the Angus business a lot smarter then me that 036 is one of the sires that this works out well with. I also understand that a sire has to be tested several times (I think 20) daughters bred to father without any problem to be considered safe for line breeding.

 

[bcarty]

Line breeding is how we get any defined "breed" for any animal. It is used to solidify certain traits and can be used to improve your cow herd. I use bulls that I raised as cleanup bulls for AI. They will be half sibs and cousins to the heifers they are breeding, and the calves will be really well suited for my environment. I only use this line breeding on heifers. It tends to produce a slightly lighter calf for me than using an outcross bull, and it makes life on my heifers easier. By only doing this on the heifers I make sure that I have very few incidences of line breeding in my herd. I keep precise notes about this and make sure that I dont keep any heifers that are the result of a second line breeding. I will keep heifers that are linebred, but I wont keep any heifers out of a line bred heifer. That sounds confusing.... example - Cow A bred to Bull A = Heifer A. Heifer A bred to half brother = heifer B(KEEP). Heifer B bred to any sib or relative I wont keep a heifer out of this cross.