CIDRs

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showing71

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We've used CIDRs for several breeding seasons now. The past 3 years we've been having some problems. The CIDRs get put in around this time, the cows get AI'd, and we have about 98% respond with a strong heat. Our AI conception rates the last 3 years have been 75-80%. We follow the instructions given to us by our ABS rep. for shots.

The problem is, we've had several cows take to AI, and then they end up being bred in the last 2 weeks of our allowed breeding season by the herd bulls, making them the last to calve. I've had discussions with the vet, and the only conclusion we can make is the cows get bred AI, but the breeding/heat isn't strong enough to continue supporting the fetus. Then the cows abort, come into another heat and get bred by the herd bulls. The first year this happened we looked into our pasture quality and mineral, but all check out. We also made sure nutrition was adequate leading up to breeding season by checking the nutrition quality of the hay we feed and have supplemented the cows with corn.

My concern is I have a 3 year old cow (picture posted in Random pics thread) who was the 2nd to last to calve this year. She was a show heifer (so she is special to me), who I bred her first time around AI in May with a natural heat. Her calf last year was born in February, and she took AI with the help of CIDRs last May, showed no signs of heat for almost 2 months, but ended up being bred the last day the bulls were out. She was put out with bulls this year right away, hopefully she can play catch-up with the rest of the cows so she can be AI'd next year (her AI calf was very good looking).

Has anyone else had this happen? We'd like to continue with CIDRs, but if we have several of our better cows get bred so late this isn't going to work.
 

dun

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From the little we've used CIDRs or other heat inducing protocols, the induced heat has frequently been less fertile then a natural heat. Whne we have induced a heat we don;t breed on that heat but wait for the nexy natural heat.
 
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showing71

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The problem with breeding naturally is this, dad is a firefighter and works 24 hour shifts for 10 days and then is off 6. We use CIDRs to get them to come in heat while dad is off so he can watch them and AI accordingly. I am not home enough to do all the AI-ing myself. Hopefully this will be the last year we have to use them, but I still found it odd the cows would maintain a pregnancy for 2 months, and then lose the calf and be bred by the herd bull.
 

dun

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Outrigger2":dn5u8xka said:
75-80% conception from AI is not bad.

Not very good either. That's about the national average but many peole get a much higher percentage, particularly using observed heats.
 

S&S Farms

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are you giving a shot of gnrh when you breed them? First question are you time AIing our syching and breeding off of heat? If time breeding give the gnRh shot.

We time bred the entire herd this year and we were happy with the way it went, to early to give you a percentage bred yet. Used Cidrs on the heifers for the first time will do that again.

Jeff
 
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showing71

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S&S Farms":10hi66bk said:
are you giving a shot of gnrh when you breed them? First question are you time AIing our syching and breeding off of heat? If time breeding give the gnRh shot.
Jeff
They aren't time AI'd. I'm not 100% sure as to what they are actually given for shots (I usually have to push cows up) but I think they get estrumate when we pull CIDRs. We've also tried a different methods of using GnRH and PG, suggested by our ABS rep which helped his cows, by giving them an extra shot to increase heat intensity, but that hasn't helped.

dun":10hi66bk said:
Outrigger2":10hi66bk said:
75-80% conception from AI is not bad.

Not very good either. That's about the national average but many peole get a much higher percentage, particularly using observed heats.

I'm extremely disappointed with 75-80%, especially when I'm out there 3 times a day checking. The first 2-3 years we used CIDRs we were having closer to a 90% conception rate. The cows that come into heat before CIDRs are put in are closer to a 95-98% conception rate. (I'm going off of rough averages over the past couple years)
 

novaman

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Nothing to do with the topic, but you guys should be happy with 80% conception. I'm lucky to get 40% on the Holsteins. I know its a different deal but hitting that high on conception is quite impressive to me.
 

Outrigger2

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showing71":3ftygfwa said:
S&S Farms":3ftygfwa said:
are you giving a shot of gnrh when you breed them? First question are you time AIing our syching and breeding off of heat? If time breeding give the gnRh shot.
Jeff
They aren't time AI'd. I'm not 100% sure as to what they are actually given for shots (I usually have to push cows up) but I think they get estrumate when we pull CIDRs. We've also tried a different methods of using GnRH and PG, suggested by our ABS rep which helped his cows, by giving them an extra shot to increase heat intensity, but that hasn't helped.

dun":3ftygfwa said:
Outrigger2":3ftygfwa said:
75-80% conception from AI is not bad.

Not very good either. That's about the national average but many peole get a much higher percentage, particularly using observed heats.

I'm extremely disappointed with 75-80%, especially when I'm out there 3 times a day checking. The first 2-3 years we used CIDRs we were having closer to a 90% conception rate. The cows that come into heat before CIDRs are put in are closer to a 95-98% conception rate. (I'm going off of rough averages over the past couple years)


i would be disappointed with 75-80% if i was out there checking heat 3 or more times a day. do you just AI once and then turn the bull out?
 

dun

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Outrigger2":1o1xw576 said:
do you just AI once and then turn the bull out?

We do now with most cows, some we'll hold back and AI a second time if needed. Until about 3 years ago we AIed everything. If the didn;t settle by the second service they found a new home in somebodys freezer.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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I use CIDR's as a tool. I do not feel that the heats from them are good enough. If you have a cow/heifer that is NOT cycling, and you use a CIDR, they will have a standing heat - but, I don't think the egg is very good.
I find that if I use a CIDR, give a prostiglandin shot when pulled. Observe heat, wait 7 days & give a prostiglandin shot again - than breed. Get very good conception that way. This system would work for you also. But it would mean another trip thru the chute.
If they settle, even for a month, it meant the egg was good. Don't understand the 2 month repeats - unless they weren't actually bred to begin with.
If you were having a health or nutrition problem, I wouldn't think it would make any difference if they conceived after a CIDR or natural heat.
 

dun

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Implantation isn;t an instantaneous occurrence. It's a process during which the placent grows and attaches. In theory that is between 25 and 45 days after fertilization. If the uterus isn;t in condition to allow the placenta to grow properly the fertilized egg (don;t recall the technical name) is still floating around and preventing the return of estrus. When implantation fails (fertilized egg dies) then the process of shedding the CL starts and a heat cycle begins.
 

Outrigger2

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dun":hxl27x1e said:
Outrigger2":hxl27x1e said:
do you just AI once and then turn the bull out?

We do now with most cows, some we'll hold back and AI a second time if needed. Until about 3 years ago we AIed everything. If the didn;t settle by the second service they found a new home in somebodys freezer.
i agree.
 
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showing71

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Outrigger2":neudsh9n said:
i would be disappointed with 75-80% if i was out there checking heat 3 or more times a day. do you just AI once and then turn the bull out?
They get AI'd once and then are turned out with the bulls. If they don't get bred by the herd bull, they take a trip.

Jeanne - Simme Valley":neudsh9n said:
Don't understand the 2 month repeats - unless they weren't actually bred to begin with.
I don't understand it either. It only happens with the CIDR cows. Our heifers are fed MGA and don't have the 2 month issue, if they don't get bred AI, they cycle right away the next month.

Jeanne - Simme Valley":neudsh9n said:
Observe heat, wait 7 days & give a prostiglandin shot again - than breed. Get very good conception that way. This system would work for you also. But it would mean another trip thru the chute.
The only problem with giving them an extra shot of PG 7 days after is we have to work around dad's work schedule.
 

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I think Dun has it figured out. I'm betting the cows have not repaired themselves from calving and cannot support the pregnancy this early. Later being bred by the bull they have had time to heal up and carry the embryo. Check your calving records and see how long from the time they calved till breeding, I would give them a minimum of 30 days(45 would be better) from calving to breeding.
 
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showing71

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Sage":2ggzv49n said:
I think Dun has it figured out. I'm betting the cows have not repaired themselves from calving and cannot support the pregnancy this early. Later being bred by the bull they have had time to heal up and carry the embryo. Check your calving records and see how long from the time they calved till breeding, I would give them a minimum of 30 days(45 would be better) from calving to breeding.
The cows that get CIDRs calve late January to February. They get CIDRs in the first week of May (by then they have had their first heat cycle after calving). We only put CIDRs in cows that have had this time span. Any cow that calves from March 15 on does not get a CIDR. This is why I find this 2 month thing so strange... We must be doing something wrong, especially if no one else has had this. Granted, there has only been 10 or so cows in the past that have done this, but it is always the cows that raise the best calf from AI sires. It wouldn't be as big of a deal if they didn't get bred AI and cycle right away the next month, but they don't and they nearly miss getting bred by the herd bulls (herd bulls get pulled from the pasture in July).
 
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showing71

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It won't let me edit, but I forgot to add this, the cows that are carrying for 2 months and then aborting (I don't know if that is really what's going on but I will call it that) have been mostly PB Red Angus-8 out of the 10.
 

OLF

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showing71":1qvol1pl said:
It won't let me edit, but I forgot to add this, the cows that are carrying for 2 months and then aborting (I don't know if that is really what's going on but I will call it that) have been mostly PB Red Angus-8 out of the 10.

Are the 8 related? Maybe it's a problem in the family.
 
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showing71

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OLF":3e3crp0b said:
showing71":3e3crp0b said:
It won't let me edit, but I forgot to add this, the cows that are carrying for 2 months and then aborting (I don't know if that is really what's going on but I will call it that) have been mostly PB Red Angus-8 out of the 10.

Are the 8 related? Maybe it's a problem in the family.
I looked them up, and they are out of LCHMN On Target, Bieber Red Moon, Norseman King, Mr Brenner, Cherokee CNYN, and Canyon Classic.
 

dun

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Were they bred around the same time? A couple of years ago we had a bunch come up open that I hadn;t seen in heat following the AI date. They were bred in a period that put them all 21-27 days bred when we had a heat wave with day temps over 105 and nights in the upper 80s.
 

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