CIDR sync issues cow in heat late

[Fuchifarm]

Used the 7 day select-Synch + CIDR method to sync a cow and heifer, the Vet's preferred method.

On Tues 8/2 vet came out and started sync on cow and heifer. Put in the CIDR and gave the GnRH shot.
On Tues 8/9 at 8pm I pulled the implants and gave them each shot of Lutalyse.
On Frid 8/12 at 8am the vet did the AI and gave the 2nd shot of GnRH.

This has worked before just fine for tAI 2 of our heifers.

Today 8/15 both the cow and heifer are in standing heat. Both are taking turns riding each other. The cow is extremely vocal.

Why would they be in heat this late?
Edit:
Been texting the vet and she wonders if the 2nd GnRH injection may have been bad. She had used the bottle the day before in the 95+ heat.

Vet is going to try and come out first thing in the morning and do the AI again.

 

[angus9259]

Probably too late. if you're paying for the semen and vet call, you might want to pass

 

[Fuchifarm]

The first obvious signs of heat started around 4pm.
At 2pm no heat behaviours were observed. Bellowing began at 4pm with mounting but running out from under.
At 7pm they began to stand for 10-30s while mounted.

I was under impression that ovulation occurs about 24-30 hours after and that ai the following morning on evening heat was pretty standard practice.

 

[Ebenezer]

Our Vet left CIDRs in for longer (maybe 2 days?) than recommended as a variation. Her experience is that it gives cows more time to develop and be ready to TAI or on the recommended some will miss and do like your cattle and come in later. She has a good track record for better %bred than I did following the exact protocol.

 

[Fuchifarm]

So leave CIDR in for 9 days instead of 7. May try that on next sync.

So I went out at 6:30am and the cow and heifer were still riding each other.
Txtd the vet and she came out at 8am and tried the AI again. She said both the cow and heifer uteruses had great tone. So fingers crossed. That is about 16hrs from when first signs of heat were oberved.

 

[angus9259]

The first obvious signs of heat started around 4pm.
At 2pm no heat behaviours were observed. Bellowing began at 4pm with mounting but running out from under.
At 7pm they began to stand for 10-30s while mounted.

I was under impression that ovulation occurs about 24-30 hours after and that ai the following morning on evening heat was pretty standard practice.

You are correct. I assumed they had been in heat all day and you would be doing ai about 24hrs after heat.

 

[dun]

The last time we tried to use CIDRs things worked about like they always do for us with them. Had heat patches on the cows (2 cows only this time as a last resort). Waited 48 hours, patches still nice and silver. Palpated them to see if they were getting close. One had already formed a CL the other had just barely a folical. AIed her and gave a shot of GnRH and turned them out with the bull 17 days later and 22 days later they both came into heat. Bull bred them and they haven;t returned to heat since.

 

[angus9259]

The last time we tried to use CIDRs things worked about like they always do for us with them. Had heat patches on the cows (2 cows only this time as a last resort). Waited 48 hours, patches still nice and silver. Palpated them to see if they were getting close. One had already formed a CL the other had just barely a folical. AIed her and gave a shot of GnRH and turned them out with the bull 17 days later and 22 days later they both came into heat. Bull bred them and they haven;t returned to heat since.

They aren't cheap either. I'm really not sure I've seen the proof that they are of value.

 

[dun]

They aren't cheap either. I'm really not sure I've seen the proof that they are of value.

I agree. The best we had was around 60% the worst was those last 2. But it seems like we always ran around 25-30%. I've always done much better than that with natural heats.

 

[Fuchifarm]

I'm planning to take an ai course so I can breed them with natural heat. Its hard for our vet to get here for natural heat. She is 1hr away so a breeding takes up 2.5 - 3hrs of her day. If we can't schedule its a crap shoot if she can make it here or not since she is the only farm vet servicing about 75mile radius.

Note for my cows its about raising top quality beef for my table. I'm not trying to make money. So expense is lower on the concern list than getting them bred and producing a quality animal. Having access to lots of bulls via AI means I can experiment with the beef I produce for my table even though it takes 2-3 years to enjoy the results.

 

[Ebenezer]

So leave CIDR in for 9 days instead of 7. May try that on next sync.

So I went out at 6:30am and the cow and heifer were still riding each other.
Txtd the vet and she came out at 8am and tried the AI again. She said both the cow and heifer uteruses had great tone. So fingers crossed. That is about 16hrs from when first signs of heat were oberved.

Yes

 

[angus9259]

So leave CIDR in for 9 days instead of 7. May try that on next sync.

So I went out at 6:30am and the cow and heifer were still riding each other.
Txtd the vet and she came out at 8am and tried the AI again. She said both the cow and heifer uteruses had great tone. So fingers crossed. That is about 16hrs from when first signs of heat were oberved.

You've done all you can do!

 

[DallyCash]

question, if CIDRs maybe aren't as reliable now, if I want to breed on a natural heat, but also want to sync the herd up. Could I insert CIDRs, follow the 7 day CO-Sync, but not AI until 21 days later when they return to heat? I realize they wont all return to heat on day 21, so will have some heat detection, but they will be much tighter window and im not relying 100% on the CIDR. Or is there another protocol I could follow with approx. same outcomes?

 

[dun]

You could probably do as well by giving shot of GnRH followed 7 days later with a shot of Lute

 

[bse]

I think natural heat is no doubt the best. But I use a lot of Cidrs and get along great with them, I make sure to use the 1 1/2 needle get it in the muscle good. Id say 95% or better show heat, some groups higher some lower for that average, but I patch them all and breed in the day and a half window not TAI. I cant string them out.
I wouldn't put the money into Cidrs and all that goes with it and not breed them, if you breed after the co-sync you can still patch them and catch the repeats 21 days later.

 

[angus9259]

I think natural heat is no doubt the best. But I use a lot of Cidrs and get along great with them, I make sure to use the 1 1/2 needle get it in the muscle good. Id say 95% or better show heat, some groups higher some lower for that average, but I patch them all and breed in the day and a half window not TAI. I cant string them out.
I wouldn't put the money into Cidrs and all that goes with it and not breed them, if you breed after the co-sync you can still patch them and catch the repeats 21 days later.

So is your ability to generate actual heat better with a CIDR? Have you compared to results without?

 

[bse]

I think a Cidr will help some cows have better heats. There are very few that if I wait them out till the 72hrs that don't show true heat. If you TAI and don't use patches or watch them close you may not know they are actually responding at some point in there. The biggest thing for me is I get them to come into heat within a 2 day period using the Cidr. Shots alone will have them strung out over several days( some people have luck with that I don't) if you just use Lute,watch for 3 to 7 days with no response then on day 10 another shot they will respond but your pushing the 21 day mark at that point and I can be doing my repeats then. All this depends on how many your doing I, AI then repatch on day 17 and re breed as needed. So for 10 dollars I get to breed on 1st heat then no worries for around 19 days then watch 6 days for repeats, ive not spent 25 days watching for heat, a small price to pay for me. With all this im not sure youd say better heat just more controlled heats.

 

[KNERSIE]

I'm with Dun, CiDRs are for emergency use only for me, used it to start two heifers cycling after the drought and it worked well for that goal.

 

[Fuchifarm]

The cow that we synced and then re-bred came back into heat 17days later. The heifer that we also re-bred at the same time hasn't shown any signs of heat and previously she has been very easy to spot.

I'm scheduled for the AI class in Clemson at the end of the month. Hopefully all goes well. I will order a tank etc and keep my semen on hand to do natural heat ai from then on. We've had horrible luck with the fixed time ai. So will be glad to move away from it.