Calving Ease Bulls--One More Time.

[Jovid]

So if he AIs what is he going to do for a cover bull? Maybe he will be happy with only 5 calves out of eight head because that is probably what he will end up with if he just AIs.

 

[Hasbeen]

I'm seeing a lot of good suggestions from a lot of folks today. Thanks a bunch everyone. I'm seeing some disagreements also, but that's good because I'm wanting various options.
Here's one I've thought of but not seen discussed. Suppose I buy one, keep it for 60-90 days and then send it to the sale. Wouldn't I stand a pretty fair chance of using him basicly free minus feed and transportation costs?

 

[6M Ranch]

Problem with sale barn cattle is that you don't always know the history. Why is the animal being sold? Do they have a physical problem? Are they sick? Disposition problem? A lot of animals I see/hear about, are ranchers giving their problems to someone else. AI, watch for the next heat, and AI the opens. Sell the ones that don't take. Eventually you're going to want a bull for clean up.

 

[dun]

So if he AIs what is he going to do for a cover bull? Maybe he will be happy with only 5 calves out of eight head because that is probably what he will end up with if he just AIs.

What cover bull? If a couple don;t settle, rebreed them AI. If they still don;t settle, ship them. No need to breed a lack offertiity into a herd

dun

 

[cypressfarms]

I'm seeing a lot of good suggestions from a lot of folks today. Thanks a bunch everyone. I'm seeing some disagreements also, but that's good because I'm wanting various options.
Here's one I've thought of but not seen discussed. Suppose I buy one, keep it for 60-90 days and then send it to the sale. Wouldn't I stand a pretty fair chance of using him basicly free minus feed and transportation costs?

If a bull is at a sale (as in sale barn/auction) there is a reason. No one would sell a perfectly good bull through a regular stock auction, because you only get slaughter prices. If you find a good 12 to 16 month old bull, use him to breed your heifers (make sure and keep him until all are settled), and then sell him, that would be feasible. You'll have have to put an add out in your local ag bulletin etc. If you brought the bull to a regular auction, you would only get slaughter prices.

I have seen fine looking bulls come through the sale ring, and the owner holding up papers. Trouble is, how many people are going to take a chance that the bull is worth it? Maybe he's a fence jumper, maybe he's prone to footrot, maybe,maybe,maybe - just too many chances. Remember the bull is 50% of your herd.

 

[dun]

If a bull is at a sale (as in sale barn/auction) there is a reason. No one would sell a perfectly good bull through a regular stock auction, because you only get slaughter prices.

As in all things,there are no absolutes. Neighbor took a very good bull to the sale barn only because he has kept so many of his daughters that it's time to move on. I know the bull and his daughters. I even considered buying him myself but figured the management would be too far beyond me.

dun

 

[randiliana]

Another thing, if you go to a local breeder's herd to get a bull, ask him what bull he would recommend for heifers. They know their cattle. If they don't have EPD's on them, then ask for the next best info, a birthweight.

 

[Jovid]

So if he AIs what is he going to do for a cover bull? Maybe he will be happy with only 5 calves out of eight head because that is probably what he will end up with if he just AIs.

What cover bull? If a couple don;t settle, rebreed them AI. If they still don;t settle, ship them. No need to breed a lack offertiity into a herd

dun

So if they don't stick when you AI them does that mean they are not fertile?

 

[dun]

So if he AIs what is he going to do for a cover bull? Maybe he will be happy with only 5 calves out of eight head because that is probably what he will end up with if he just AIs.

What cover bull? If a couple don;t settle, rebreed them AI. If they still don;t settle, ship them. No need to breed a lack offertiity into a herd

dun

So if they don't stick when you AI them does that mean they are not fertile?

If they don;t settle with a maximum of 2 breedings, it means that something is not right. That pretty much boils down to fertility under the existing managment conditions.

dun

 

[MoGal]

Also, some of the big breeders do lease out bulls on occasion. Wouldn't hurt to ask them. You might also find a neighbor who would allow you to turn your 8 heifers in with his (if he's breeding his during the same time) as I don't think that would overwork the bull. Imo, a bull that is in good shape can cover more cows than his age (i.e. 12 month old bull only on 12 cows, I know some of mine have covered 20-24 in a 90 day period and believe me if any come up open they automatically assume the bull is at fault in a lease situation).

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Rod, that's the type of advise I was looking for. I'll be looking forward to those pictures.

Hasbeen, I'm sorry but I wasn't able to find a single good picture on-line of a coarse muscled hard calving bull. When you're looking at your bull from the front, watch how the hide flows into the shoulder. Its nice and smooth, you'll be fine. If you can see "blocks" or steps into the shoulder, you may have trouble. Bear in mind that birthweight does go hand in hand. The lighter the birthweight, the coarser you can get, but only to a point. I've pulled blocky 80 lb calves out of large 6 year old cows.

Rod

 

[Hasbeen]

Thanks for trying, Rod. I think I have the idea. My bull needs to look "aerodynamic".

 

[Hasbeen]

Got a phone call last night from a local lady whose husband passed away recently offering to sell me a 17 mos. old bull and two heifers. I don't know what the circumstances are but I'm going to go take a look this afternoon and if the bull meets the discription Rod posted and if the price is right, I'll take my mentor back with me to get his opinion. I seriously doubt this lady is going to have EPDs or birthweights or any other info on this stock, but I figure it's worth a look, especially if I can get them below auction prices. Maybe I can even make a little profit on them if I choose not to keep them. Besides, this is good experience for me, a little test for what knowledge I've gained.

 

[Dana Kopp]

So if he AIs what is he going to do for a cover bull? Maybe he will be happy with only 5 calves out of eight head because that is probably what he will end up with if he just AIs.

What cover bull? If a couple don;t settle, rebreed them AI. If they still don;t settle, ship them. No need to breed a lack offertiity into a herd

dun

So if they don't stick when you AI them does that mean they are not fertile?

If they don;t settle with a maximum of 2 breedings, it means that something is not right. That pretty much boils down to fertility under the existing managment conditions.

dun

It also could mean that there is a problem with the timing. After many years of AIing my folks have learned that the later in the cycle they breed (after you see the cow standing) the better results they had. I don't remember the timing they use, but it seems like it is at least 12-15 hrs later - I can check with them if anyone is really interested. But again you have to look at the vet/AI tech's schedule and what time you might be AIing - 2am doesn't generally work. If you have to breed them earlier maybe a placement not as deep could compensate. Make sense?

 

[Jovid]

So if he AIs what is he going to do for a cover bull? Maybe he will be happy with only 5 calves out of eight head because that is probably what he will end up with if he just AIs.

What cover bull? If a couple don;t settle, rebreed them AI. If they still don;t settle, ship them. No need to breed a lack offertiity into a herd

dun

So if they don't stick when you AI them does that mean they are not fertile?

If they don;t settle with a maximum of 2 breedings, it means that something is not right. That pretty much boils down to fertility under the existing managment conditions.

dun

It also could mean that there is a problem with the timing. After many years of AIing my folks have learned that the later in the cycle they breed (after you see the cow standing) the better results they had. I don't remember the timing they use, but it seems like it is at least 12-15 hrs later - I can check with them if anyone is really interested. But again you have to look at the vet/AI tech's schedule and what time you might be AIing - 2am doesn't generally work. If you have to breed them earlier maybe a placement not as deep could compensate. Make sense?

Makes a lot of sense to me. I surely wouldn't ship a good heifer just because she didn't stick from AIing. Now if she didn't breed after being with a bull for 70 days than that's a different story.

 

[dun]

Makes a lot of sense to me. I surely wouldn't ship a good heifer just because she didn't stick from AIing. Now if she didn't breed after being with a bull for 70 days than that's a different story.

We've bred this way and selected this way for a good many years. W haven't had to ship a heifer for not settling by the second service in years. Since we do strictly AI, running with a bull fr 70 days isn't an option, if it was, it would be a very poor one.
The slight difference in how far to deposit the semen is pretty useless. If you're real late and palpate to find the horn she's ovulating into and you deposit it directly in the horn that may do something. We've alwasy just used the standard 12 hours after observing standing heat, it's worked for us for years and the rest of the industry too.
The sperm needs an amount of time, I don;t recall what it is, to become capacitated, that's able to fertilize the egg. So too late and the little swimmers may not be ready to fertilize the egg when the meet. Too early and they've started to lose their ability to fetilize the egg when it's released.

dun

 

[AngusLimoX]

I started with 6 bred heifers, bought 12 heifers and finally got a bull. Reg BA.

Bought him from a friend I met on the AI course. Kept him 3 years. Nothing was left open, rare calving problems on a largely heifer group, and I think I saw him mount twice in all that time.

Disposition of a friendly giant.

Sold him (because I had to ) for almost what I paid for him, ( I should have gotten his daughters away from him, even if it meant renting somewhere ).

I hope to find another just like him.

I know the first place I will look.
:lol:

 

[Hasbeen]

Got a phone call last night from a local lady whose husband passed away recently offering to sell me a 17 mos. old bull and two heifers. I don't know what the circumstances are but I'm going to go take a look this afternoon and if the bull meets the discription Rod posted and if the price is right, I'll take my mentor back with me to get his opinion. I seriously doubt this lady is going to have EPDs or birthweights or any other info on this stock, but I figure it's worth a look, especially if I can get them below auction prices. Maybe I can even make a little profit on them if I choose not to keep them. Besides, this is good experience for me, a little test for what knowledge I've gained.

Well, this turned out to be an easy decision. I'd have shot that scrawny little critter if I saw him anywhere near my girls. I thanked the lady politely for her time and told her I was going to keep looking.