Calving Ease Bulls--One More Time.

[Hasbeen]

OK, here's the deal. I'm going to need a bull before May. I had been hoping to find another small timer to split one with (I breed my girls then move him on to next guy) but that's not panning out. I've done my research and read about EPDs, AI, etc., but now I'm looking for a solution for the small time beginner on a budget. I have 8 heifers, average weight at the time I bought them in late November was 850 lbs. I fed them plenty of minerals, feed, and free choice hay since and all seem to be doing very well. My goal this year is simply to get calves on the ground as easily as possible, find out who breeds easily, who is a good mother, who stays and who goes, and get a little positive cash flow (no money will go in my pocket, all goes back to caring for and improving the herd for the next five years). After the first crop of calves, I plan to concentrate on building a good herd and a good reputation as a producer, but for now I'm just looking to promote the girls from heifers to cows with as few problems as possible. I know from reading everyone's comments that the solution would be to carefully select a proven bull but that is the problem. Most of the farmers in my area wouldn't even know what an EPD is and the ones who do have bulls that would be out of my price range. I know I'm going to get blasted for this, but it's looking as is my first bull is going to come from the sales barn or is going to be a young, unproven local bull and no one is going to have any idea of it's EPD. My question is, how is EPD determined on a first-time bull who has never sired a calf? If EPD is not available, what should I look for? Is a young one or two year old best for heifers? I plan to use Angus if that helps.
I'm sorry this post is so long, but I couldn't figure how to make it shorter. Feel free to blast the rookie as long as you give some advise. ;-)

 

[endebt]

If you want cavleing ease bulls and non are in you area or price range. Then go a i. I have been a i ing for about 5 years and have turned my herd around. I can use a $50,000 bull for abut $35 . I sure as hell can't buy him. We a i between 10 and 40 hiefers twice a year. This way you can build a nice herd of known epd's down the road. You also have something to market with a know end item. Also you can retain bulls for futrue use on you herd. Hope this helps some.

 

[Frankie]

Is there any way you can AI those heifers? A vet in my local area will board cattle and get the AIed. It's not cheap, though.

A young bull's EPDs (all EPDs) are the result of performance information reported on his realtives, sisters, brothers, dam, sire, etc. If the EPD isn't available, try to get registration #s on his sire and dam. You can look them up at the http://www.angus.org site and check their EPDs. Age isn't a factor in the quality of calves a bull throws. The weight of a mature bull might be a concern on heifers.

As a breed, Angus are easy calving. But there are harder calving lines, plus the heifers and your management of the heifers while they're bred will have a lot of effect on the size of the calf. Good luck....

 

[Hasbeen]

Had a long talk with my vet about AI, that was my original plan. He said that he could do it, but no one else in my area does it and it had been awhile. He also pointed out that no one nearby has a storage tank and they are quite expensive. Another thing I learned from this forum is that most who use AI also keep a cleanup bull so there I am again with the same problem. Using AI only on first time heifers, the ones who stayed open (20-30% isn't it?) would be a big question as to whether I should cull or not.
I still have six weeks to work this out and I'm still hoping to find someone to split with or lease from, I'm just trying to be prepared for all scenarios.

 

[cypressfarms]

Hasbeen,

I'll get blasted for offering this advice, but here goes:

You've already checked into A.I. and it doesn't seem feasible.

I would buy a angus yearling bull (maybe 14 to 16 months old), to breed to your heifers. If your heifers were 850 lbs in November, they will be bigger now, and by the time they calve, they will even be bigger. Many people breed at about 60-70% of final mature weight of the cow. They are plenty big enough now to breed.

This is where the risk comes in. Buy you a yearling bull (If he's registered you can look up his sire and dam's performance EPD's). Any young bull you buy, even if he does have EPD's will have low accuracy, because his progeny have not been reported yet. So buying a young bull with EPD's is still rolling the dice, but your chances may be better.

So my advice would be buy a yearling to breed your 8 heifers, then sell the bull as a 2 year old. Make sure when you advertize him, that you tell any would be buyer that he has bred, but only heifers. This greatly reduces his chances of carrying any diseases. Oh, yeah, make sure you get a BSE done on him.

I just bought a 16 month old angus plus - his motility was at 97%, really hot, he's mounting everything that stands still!

Who nows, you may like the bull so much, that you want to keep him...

 

[Hasbeen]

Thank you, Cypressfarms, that's what I was looking for. From what I've read and been told, I was thinking my best option was a young bull and was looking for someone to agree.
First time bull, first time heifers, and first time chaperone. It's going to look like Prom Night at my place.

 

[Susie David]

Hasbeen....plan on staying up late. Last season I never saw our bull cover a cow but all were bred. He either worked the real late shift or got up awhole lot earlier than I did.
Good luck...I've thought about leasing a bull but haven't looked into it real hard.
DMc

 

[rkm]

If it was my heifers I would talk to the AI stud reps. in your area. I bet they could find a tech would travel some and breed your heifers if you sync them. You could not only breed for ce, but select for other traits that you want in your future herd. If 1 or 2 don't breed sell them and buy bred ones. Compared to buying a bull for 8 heifers I think you you will save money. You won't save money by buying a sad bull.

 

[Hasbeen]

If it was my heifers I would talk to the AI stud reps. in your area. I bet they could find a tech would travel some and breed your heifers if you sync them. You could not only breed for ce, but select for other traits that you want in your future herd. If 1 or 2 don't breed sell them and buy bred ones. Compared to buying a bull for 8 heifers I think you you will save money. You won't save money by buying a sad bull.

As I said earlier, AI does seem the ideal way to go, but I don't have access to a semen storage tank, there are no area techs, just the local vet. This is rural SE Kentucky. Nothing more high tech than a Walmart and a bunch of good ol' boys raising cattle the way their daddy did it. They know how to pick out a good cow, how to pull a calf and and how to get a sick cow back on track but it goes downhill from there. These guys are great and always willing to help, but there's a lot more info on this board than what I'm getting locally even from the Ag Agent.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Ack, all this talk about EPDs but no-one told him what to look for?

It doesn't matter how old the bull is. I don't like using yearling bulls on heifers due to inexperience, but it really doesn't matter. What DOES matter is the conformation of the bull you choose.

You want a nice head on your bull, little bullet shaped. It needs to move smoothly into the neck and from there make a smooth transition into the front shoulders. Your front shoulders need to be angled in on the front, in other words. Do NOT choose any bull with heavily muscled, course, front shoulders or a blocky head, no matter what the EPDs say. You will be pulling calves.

Since you're a first timer, you may even want to err a little cautious on overall muscling. Choose something just a _little_ on the light side, and a little leggier. Your calves won't be as nice come sale day, but your heifers will thank you for it.

Look at the conformation first, EPDs second, especially on a yearling. Check birthweight, and try to select a low birthweight. However if you see a coarse shouldered animal with a low birthweight, still stay away. Those front shoulders and head are the absolute most important thing on that bull. Pay more attention to the calving ease EPD, but once again if the conformation of the bull says the EPD is lying, go with your eyes.

I'm trying to find a couple pictures of easy calving vs hard calving bulls, but am shipping calves today. Maybe I'll find something tonight for you.

Rod

 

[dun]

The larger studs have traveling reps that cover most areas. Have you checked with Genex, ABS or Select Sires to see if they have a rep that services your area. If you use one of them you don;t need a tank, just cattle and facilitys to AI them.

dun

 

[Hasbeen]

The larger studs have traveling reps that cover most areas. Have you checked with Genex, ABS or Select Sires to see if they have a rep that services your area. If you use one of them you don;t need a tank, just cattle and facilitys to AI them.

dun

I'll check into it dun, thanks.

Rod, that's the type of advise I was looking for. I'll be looking forward to those pictures.

 

[dun]

If there are any dairys in the area they may also do AI. If that's the case they'll also have a tank.

dun

 

[TheBullLady]

Do you get any local cattle publications? Surely there are some bull sales in your area.. I know I've seen catalogs for them! I'd look into a good bull sale.. with different breeds available. You'll do a lot better there than at the sale barn, and you'll get EPD's as well. It's worth the day or two to at least use the best bull you can afford for the first time.

 

[Jovid]

My question would be how much do you plan to spend on buying a bull? If you AI you are still going to need a cover bull. Why not just buy a good quality bull. Probably won't find him at a sale barn though.

 

[cypressfarms]

Hasbeen,

forgot to ask previously, but what breed are your heifers?

Diamond S is right, you want a bull with a smaller wedge shaped head and smooth transition. I don't know how much you might get docked for the ears where you are, but a brangus bull might be the answer. Most brangus sired calves come out like a wedge. Long calves, but shaped perfect for easy birth. Again, it would depend on your heifer breed, as some breeds will knock a lot of the brangus ear off.

Do yourself a favor and don't buy from a sale barn. Go out and take a look at some bulls in their elements. Do they walk/move easily. If the seller has other bulls, how does this one compare.

There was a time not too long ago when people bought bulls without EPD's. We had a post on here not long ago that had bred heifers to a bull to find that the bulls BW #'s shot way up after he bred, thus making him worry about calving problems.

I would think that with heifers at 850 lbs, you are ahead of the game. (especially if they are british)

By the way, a good quality yearling bull will save you some pocket change, and still be able to do the job. Old timers used to say that a bull could cover as many cows as he was month's old. So a 12 month old could cover 12 cows. I think that you could easily get by with a 12 to 14 month old.

 

[chetski]

Talk to the Vet again. I bet there are more folks wanting to AI. Maybe you and them get together with the vet and COOP for the needed supplies. The Vet would cut his fee (or not charge you at all for say 1-year AI Tech service) if you let him keep the tank and non-disposable supplies for COOP needs down the road.

Just a Thought.

 

[6M Ranch]

As Dun stated, the local reps will get and hold your semen for you. The ABS and Semex reps in my area, also do AI. Just because they don't advertise, doesn't mean there aren't a lot of AI techs in your area. I know of at least six around here, that don't advertise at all. I found them through word of mouth. There are also people like yourself who know how to AI, and would probably help you out. I've had luck with two people like that. Go to: http://www.angusproductions.com/api_catalogs.html
thats a start for Angus sales. Contact the state Angus association, they can probably help you with AI or finding a bull.

 

[susie]

I think Ai is the way to go-- contact ABS or Genex, they'll help you out.
Get the heifers synced, pick out some CE bull, and you're off.
IMO 8 isn't enough to go to the hassle of a bull. And you 'll get way better calves, not to mention you can go with a proven calving ease bull.


Susie

 

[TXBobcat]

For a commercial herd, I would find a local breeder (breed of your choice) that raises registered cattle. Stop by their place and look around. They'll probably have some good looking 12-18 mo old bulls that have not been registered for one reason or another. Look those over and find one that fits you needs based on physical appearance, price, etc. and then ask for birth weights if they have them. You can probably make a pretty good deal on something like this, and you can get in the pasture with them and see their temprement too.