Calf ?

[Workinonit Farm]

I took advantage of this opportunity to get some good injection site pics, too. Just to help convince the non-believers that we need to give shots in the neck.

Really good idea there.

Yes, I too would be interested in seeing a pic of that lung.
Sorry to hear that it didn't work out.

Katherine

 

[Alice]

You did everything you could possibly do for the calf...in the beginning, all the way thru, up to, and including, the end.

Alice

 

[Mahoney Pursley Ranch]

Don't know who could have saved that calf if you couldn't Texan. Sorry to hear it died.

 

[Beefy]

sew him back up real quick like and send him to Milkmaid. she might can still save him.

 

[ollie']

sew him back up real quick like and send him to Milkmaid. she might can still save him.

:lol: Milk maid would remove the bullet and do a lung transplant and show him next year as the champion steer at the fair. Then she'd sell him to the neighbors for a thousand bucks.

 

[Texan]

I think you guys are right about Milkmaid. She could probably still do something with him today if the buzzards didn't run her off first. :lol: Too bad she's off in the fruitcake state when I needed her. Calves like this one will be part of her scholarship plan when she signs that letter of intent with Texas A&M vet school.

I've been posting basically the same posts over at Ranchers. DOC made a point over there about the lung damage possibly being from the tube. He made some good points, so I'm going to just copy his quote and my reply from over there and paste it here. It's also got a pic with it. Someone else had mentioned to me in a PM about the tube. I won't identify him or her in case he or she doesn't want to be identified. Or maybe I should refer to it as a he-she?

 

[Texan]

This is from Ranchers concerning the same calf:

Texan - You mentioned that the outside of his right lung had what looked like a fresh cut or puncture. You previously mentioned that you "...passed a tube down him with no problem but never could get any air to him." If he was in a 'sitting up or slouched' position when you passed the tube down him, you could have VERY EASILY punctured or sliced a lung. THAT could have been the deciding factor of his demise, but not the primary etiology, or original cause. If you did not disinfect the navel at his birth, he could have gotten an infection which progressed internally and lowered his natural resistance. Your ". . .hitting him" with a series of high impact drugs might have really put his Reticuloendothelial System (Natural disease resistance) into a corkscrew spin. Do you know if he got sufficient (or ANY) Colostrum at birth?

I think it would be worth a few dollars to discover the real cause of his illness.


DOC HARRIS

Thanks for your input, DOC. Someone else had mentioned to me in a PM about the tube and the possibility of puncturing the lung. As I said in my post about the lung, I'm almost certain that we didn't do it. And keep in mind that he was already having trouble breathing before I ever used the tube---that's why I did it---to be sure there wasn't something in the back of his throat. The calf was laying down on his left side when I used the tube from a tube feeder to see if there was something in his throat, because I couldn't see down it and couldn't get my fingers down it far enough. It was a last resort before shooting him, anyway. The tube has a bulb on the end of it, and since I've never gotten fluid into the lungs of a baby calf with it before, I'm pretty sure that I didn't go in deep enough to go into and through the lung of a 200 pound calf. Especially since I didn't even use all of the tube. Certainly not impossible for it to be a puncture from the tube, though. Sure looks like it, but as you can see from the following pic, there was no blood on the outside of the lung. There was also no coughing of blood, no blood out the nose and no change in his breathing after I put the tube in his throat and found that the throat was clear.

As far as disinfecting the navel, in this case we actually did that. But only because it was a late bull calf. We try to catch those late bulls on the day they're born, or the second day, at the latest. I hold the calf and fight cows while my wife cuts them. After she sprays iodine on the cut, she always works some into the navel. The vast majority of my calves don't get their navels disinfected and WON'T. I calve in the pasture and let the cow do her job without worrying about me harrassing her baby, except on these late calves that are born after branding. The way I look at it, cows have been having calves for thousands of years without iodine. They'll lick it off and suck it out as soon as you turn the calf loose, anyway. You might could make the argument that iodine has already had time to do it's job by the time a cow licks it off, though. However, in this case, the calf got a navel infection in spite of the iodine. I do my best to calve in clean pastures, so I'm just not sold on the benefit of dipping or spraying navels in my situation.

On the colostrum, I never know for sure exactly how much a calf gets. I try to be sure that every calf has sucked within the first day, but I sure don't pen pairs, milk cows and force feed colostrum to calves if they haven't done it on their own in the first few hours. I have no reason to think that this calf didn't get enough colostrum, however.

I agree completely that it would be worth "a few dollars" to find out the real cause of his problem. But where we probably differ is on the definition of "a few dollars." It's possible (or probable) that "a few dollars" to you is quite different than "a few dollars" to me. As I mentioned previously, I would sure be the first to encourage anyone to use a vet for treatment (or post) of something that has happened more than once, so that we can know what we're dealing with and how to treat. But on these freaky deals, where the only thing to be gained is satisfying curiosity, I'll keep my money to use on something else. I place a low (zero?) monetary value on satisfying my curiosity. Especially this time of year, when it's been almost 12 months since a payday. I've learned from experience over the years that there is something worse than losing cattle and not knowing exactly why. That's losing those cattle and then getting a vet bill to add to the misery. I'm sure that I can't be the only one that feels that way?

Here's the best pic of that area. If anyone has already got the pre-conceived notion that this was a puncture from the inside of the lung, I don't think the pic will change your mind any. Except for the absence of blood in the area, it sure appears that it could have been. But there was never any reaction from the calf and never any coughing of blood or blood out the nose. And I could find no other reason for his shortness of breath BEFORE I ever put the tube in his throat to be sure he wasn't choking. IF it's a puncture (I never could determine for sure that it went all the way through), I would be more inclined to believe that it was done by a finger while scooping the lungs away from the ribs, or from a broken rib that I just didn't find. I just can't say definitively one way or another. The absence of blood just makes me wonder if it was a defect, or something manual done after death. The shape of it sure makes it appear to be something manual. But if something manual done prior to death, why no blood? In any case, it wasn't the deciding factor in his death. It was just the only thing unusual that I found. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, DOC.

 

[ollie']

He-she huh. You're a funny girl.
After thinking about it if the tube tore him it wouldn't tear it from top to bottom of the lung, it'd tear it from front to back. I don't really think the hole in the lung is part of the whole deal. Did you cut his lung open? I don't know what I'd be looking for but I would imagine some sort of lung damage on the inside.

 

[ollie']

Was the diaphram in tact? No holes?

 

[MikeC]

I agree completely that it would be worth "a few dollars" to find out the real cause of his problem. But where we probably differ is on the definition of "a few dollars." It's possible (or probable) that "a few dollars" to you is quite different than "a few dollars" to me.

Does Texas not have "State" labs that will do a necropsy?

Ours is in Auburn and it costs nothing to have it done. We can drop them off 7 days a week at any time of day.

They even have a wench outside to unload grown horses or cows. Just swing 'em and roll them in the cooler and fill out the paperwork.

 

[dun]

They even have a wench outside to unload grown horses or cows. Just swing 'em and roll them in the cooler and fill out the paperwork.

That must be one strong girl swing a horse

dun

 

[ollie']

How about mycotic pneumonia? Or some other fungal lung infection.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... htm&hide=1

 

[MikeC]

They even have a wench outside to unload grown horses or cows. Just swing 'em and roll them in the cooler and fill out the paperwork.

That must be one strong girl swing a horse

dun

Big Cornbread fed Alabama girl. :lol:

No, the wench picks the cow or horse up to a roller bar/track kinda like in the slaughter houses. The little caddy has two cables to tie it's feet/legs onto.

 

[KenB]

They even have a wench outside to unload grown horses or cows. Just swing 'em and roll them in the cooler and fill out the paperwork.

That must be one strong girl swing a horse

dun

Big Cornbread fed Alabama girl. :lol:

No, the wench picks the cow or horse up to a roller bar/track kinda like in the slaughter houses. The little caddy has two cables to tie it's feet/legs onto.

;-) WINCH= hoisting or pulling device.
:roll: wench= "Big Cornbread fed Alabama girl"

 

[Texan]

After thinking about it if the tube tore him it wouldn't tear it from top to bottom of the lung, it'd tear it from front to back. I don't really think the hole in the lung is part of the whole deal. Did you cut his lung open? I don't know what I'd be looking for but I would imagine some sort of lung damage on the inside.

I didn't cut them open. I agree that the hole in the lung probably wasn't part of the whole deal. He had been breathing just fine until right at the end.

Was the diaphram in tact? No holes?

I didn't notice.

How about mycotic pneumonia? Or some other fungal lung infection.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... htm&hide=1

There never was a cough. Never even once. The only respiratory-type symptoms that I ever saw from him was when he was about ten days old. That was just a runny nose and runny eyes. After getting that cleared up, he never showed any other respiratory signs until he had trouble breathing in the last 30 minutes.

 

[Texan]

Does Texas not have "State" labs that will do a necropsy?

Ours is in Auburn and it costs nothing to have it done. We can drop them off 7 days a week at any time of day.

They even have a wench outside to unload grown horses or cows. Just swing 'em and roll them in the cooler and fill out the paperwork.

Mike, as far as I know, they still do some work like that at A&M. But I'm not sure if they'll take anything and everything. TBL or txag can probably tell us for sure. That would be about a 500 mile round trip for me. That sounds like a good setup that you have access to.

 

[msscamp]

Texan, I am very sorry the calf died. It sounds to me like you did everything possible (and then some) to save him, and it just didn't work out. Although I'm certainly no expert, I don't see how a tube with a ball on the end of it could cause the kind of injury to the lung that the picture shows. As far as losing a calf and then having to pay a vet bill for an autopsy on top of it - no, you're not the only one who feels that way.

 

[Beefy]

Texan it sounds to me like the little fellow had a collapsed lung from your description of his breathing right before you put him down. the picture doesnt appear to be a puncture from the inside out, but rather from the outside in. the lungs should be protected by teh ribcage from any outside trauma though and my previous thought of hardware doesnt make much sense on account of it being the outside of the right lung. looks like you get a big ol fat "beats me!" i wish Vicky the Vet would stick her head in for a moment.

 

[AngusLimoX]

the picture doesnt appear to be a puncture from the inside out, but rather from the outside in. the lungs should be protected by teh ribcage from any outside trauma though and my previous thought of hardware doesnt make much sense on account of it being the outside of the right lung. looks like you get a big ol fat "beats me!" i wish Vicky the Vet would stick her head in for a moment.

I agree that from the photo the puncture is from outside in, maybe even a tear when it was being removed from the ribcage?

Vicki could jump in, the grand Schmooze of Vets could drop in, and I'll bet the best you get is a likelihood of it being one of 3 different things.( No disrespect, it is just that I doubt that the material/information to make an accurate diagnosis is there).

The odour thing and the muscular movement things really make this guys symptoms distinctive.

Pretty cool that MikeC has bovine version of the CSI lab on his doorstep! For free!