BVD and IBR

Help Support CattleToday:

Joined
Sep 13, 2004
Messages
4,571
Reaction score
504
Location
Tennessee
If a bull is found positive for BVD and IBR, with scours; has been in with cows with calves, is it possible for any of the cows or calves to come out negative? Is it true that all of the calves the cows are carrying will be positive? What can be expected?
The bull is fat and shiny, he must be a carrier.
Was the herd vaccinated? Yes.
I am sicker than you can imagine.
Chuckie
 
Not sure of the question of "positive" or "negative". Do you mean being PI? I believe the only PI candidates are the ones that contract it in-vitro. If you're referring to which animals can contract the virus - I'm sure they're all susceptible. Seems like the herd being vaccinated should cut your losses significantly - especially for abortions if vaccinated properly.

That said, I'm prepared to be corrected and educated myself.

Sorry for the dilemma.
 
If the positive was an ear notch test, then he would be a PI and would be a carrier. If the positive was a blood antibody test, then it means that he has had BVD and got over it and is now immune to it, he would not be a carrier. A PI will test negative on an antibody test as they never develop any immunity to it and remain Persistently Infected.
By saying positive to BVD and IBR I suspect that these results were from an investigation into sickness ie the scours and most likely would show exposure and immunity.
If he was a PI, then calves could get BVD, would get over it and make a full recovery with lifetime immunity. Any cow that wasn't vaccinated or previously exposed to it would get it and make a full recovery, it could cause her to abort or if a foetus is the right age and not aborted it becomes a PI when born.
It is complex but seeing cows are vaccinated, even with a worst case scenario there should be minimal losses.
Some people will keep a known PI in with their heifers prior to joining to get natural immunity which is permanent as opposed to vaccine induced immunity which needs an annual booster, so Pfizer tells us ( good for vaccine sales).
Ken
Hope I haven't confused you.
 
The bull has the scours, but has held his weight. I have kept him wormed, and vaccinated, and treated him for coccidiosis twice.

I then had the vet come out and pull BLOOD for the tests. When he saw him, he said that he had never seen a bull in his condition that had BVD, and he would be surprised if it came back positive.

Then yesterday, he told me that the test came back positive. He also came back with coccidiosis. ????? I guess if I treat the third time with feed, it will be a charm. I used Corid first in the water for 5 days, then Albon in the water. Now I am going to Corid in the feed for 5 days. He told me not to get rid of any of my cows unless they started doing poorly. I need more information than that from others. This is a young vet, and he is one person. I need to hear other's experiences.

I have my best cow, who is losing weight, but she is an extremely heavy milker, and she has scours. But it goes through my mind that she may have coccidiosis now. And she could have BVD. It sickens me. She does have a bright shiny coat, bright eyes, and she feels great. She always looses weight when her calf gets around 5 months old. It is time for the calf to come off.

What would you do about the rest of the herd? These are registered animals.
Chuckie
 
Angus 9259 and Wbvs58,
If I sell the bull to slaughter, and retain the cows, how will I be able to sell cattle to the public? Is there enough time that goes by that it completely leaves their body? Is there an article you know about the subject that will explain it further so you will not have to write a book?
Thanks,
Chuckie
 
https://www.bvdvaustralia.com.au/docume ... de0708.pdf

Try the above link, but you have to sit down with a clear mind and work through it to fully understand it and how it applies to your situation.
As I said previously you have to find out which test said the bull was +ve, the antigen (bad, usually ear notch) or antibody test (good), it is impossible for both to be +ve. I think it is more than likely it was a blood antibody test as it was done for a disease investigation.
If the disease is contracted as an adult, yes, the virus leaves their body completely on recovery. It is usually a symptonless disease, it will lower their immune system while active, making more susceptible to respiratory disease etc when stressed such as on entry to a feedlot, but cows in the paddock will usually make a full recovery and definately will not continue to shed the virus.
First thing is to go back to the vet and ask which test was it, does the test mean your bull is a PI?
If the vet is only young and has not had much experience he may not know the difference between the tests, he may just be excited that he has a result to tell you.
Ken
Don't stress even in a worst case scenario your loss may only be minimal, if your cows are all vaccinated/immune their is no reason why you can't still use a PI bull if he is doing the job of getting them in calf, but I think it is unlikely that he is PI.
 
You have a known PI Bull and some one says if it works keep it.... :help: Sell it Cull it shoot it...eat it....do not let it breed!

IF you breed a PI bull to a clean cow you end up putting the fetus at risk. Then the baby is born, and it gets stressed and then goes to a feed lot and gets stressed and then dies...not good.

If you have had this bull for a while, ear notch all animals on the farm. Clean it up. Re build.
It will be hard to do, but in the end it your herd will be healthier


Remember a PI animal will shed the virus from every openning in it's body. That means it comes from the slober the poop, the nasal discharge, the tears, the pee, the semem. It will increase the virus load on your farm putting the immunity and health of the rest of your animals and future animals at risk...high risk

Do it now or do it later after taking heavy calving, pre calving losses or post calving sickness. Either way...
 
Some ship cattle with chronic scours and just hope for the best, but it seems like you need to ear notch the herd as suggested so you know where you are at.

What is the bulls vaccination history?
 
Rockridgecattle,
I am afraid to keep the bull on the place. He has had the scours since late winter. He does not have any blood, just green watery scours. Even though he is fat and happy; runs and plays.

If anyone can tell me how this test reads......
The BVD test that was taken was a Serology test, and was run at 1 to 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, and 256 dilutions.
The presence of pre-existing antibody titers from vaccination, natural exposure, or colotrum precludes interpretation of results from single serum samples. Confirmation of the clinical diagnosis may necessitate isolation of the virus.
Seq #1.
BVD >=1:256

Serologic diagnosis of IBR is based on the increase in antibody titers to IBR titers to IBR in paired serum samples collected during the acute stage of the disease and the convalescent stage 3 go 4 weeks post infection.

IBR serology test run at 1 to 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, and 256.
Seq #1. IBR 1:64

Stocker Steve, The bull has had vaccinations since he was a calf. So, the lack of vaccinations is not the cause.

Wbvs58, I am getting ready to read the article that you posted. I opening my mind right now!
Chuckie
 
As I suggested the bull is not a PI, he has antibodies to BVD which may even be from vaccinations. A PI will not produce antibodies. What they are saying about the test is that to see if it is a recent infection and hence contributing to the scours then a second blood test needs to be done a few weeks later to see if the antibody titre is rising.
I suspect if a second test was done it would be the same, suggesting that the antibody titre is from the vaccinations, ie immune to BVD.
From what you have had done so far there is nothing to suggest you have a problem with BVD, your herd is vaccinated, your bull has immunity, I would relax a bit. Yes you could ear notch the lot, you might find a PI, you may not, but I maintain if your herd is immune then a PI would have no impact.
Ken
 
Thank you so very very much wbvs58!!!! I will do that. I will stop being sick to my stomach over this too. I am in the middle of the article. You have been a great help!!!
Chuckie
 
A couple reflections -

all my cattle have green watery "scours" right now cause they're on grass. that's normal.
a positive serum test doesn't really indicate much of anything conclusively - you need to ear notch (I think this has been covered)
every calf that hits the ground over here gets ear notched and is sold as a non - PI.
any PI animal should be disposed of immediately
vaccinations are not 100%
 
The watery scours he has, looks like a water hose turned on. There is no substance to it, nor any fiber in it. It was the same way in the winter time when he was eating Brewers grain and Orchard Grass/clover hay, and Bermuda grass hay.

If he has had BVD and the scours; and he did shed the virus, will he eventually get rid of the scours? Or is this going to be a lifelong thing?
Chuckie
 
Chuckie":1loywvj5 said:
The watery scours he has, looks like a water hose turned on. There is no substance to it, nor any fiber in it. It was the same way in the winter time when he was eating Brewers grain and Orchard Grass/clover hay, and Bermuda grass hay.

If he has had BVD and the scours; and he did shed the virus, will he eventually get rid of the scours? Or is this going to be a lifelong thing?
Chuckie

The scours should abate if that's the issue. That said, on green grass, I could probably pass some of my cattle feces through a screen and not have anything on it. If you have him separated now, is he on hay?
 
Perhaps I missed it, but how old is this bull? And where did he come from? What is your mineral program, what types of vaccines do you use and types of dewormers?

Single titers mean nothing in the face of vaccination. Paired titers (about 4-6 weeks apart) with no recent vaccinations have some meaning. Titers only tell you if his immune system is responding to an exposure, either through nature or vaccination. If you are truly concerned about BVD, ear notch him. If he was vaccinated recently be prepared to do it twice, as many times a recently vaccinated animal will trip the test falsely positive.

If he had clinical coccidiosis for this long I would expect weight loss. He may just be a carrier/shedder. Without weight loss it is more likely a large intestinal problem

I think your time would be best spent if your vet or you could seek the advice of a vet at your state vet lab or at the nearest vet school. They would be able to make the list of possibilities smaller and help you obtain the correct samples to get a good diagnosis.

If the bull is PI I would NEVER keep him, I don't care how much you vaccinate you are just asking for trouble.
 
He is a three year old bull and was bought from a farm that sells nationwide, so I will not give their name. I have bought my last two bulls from them and would go back if I needed another.

I feed TN Farmer's Co-oop Supreme Hi-Mag Cattle mineral.

I alternate Cydectin and Ivermectin wormers

He had shots at the end of the last year, Bar Vac 7/Somnus, Express FP 3-VL5

I will have to shut them out of the barn where they keep it wet; they want to lay in it where it is cool. I think this is part of the conditions that keeps the coccidiosis growing, so I will lock them from this, and it will force them out into the pasture under the trees.

This is a young vet, and he just called and said he had bad news. He is not a great communicator.

I will feed treat them this time for coccidiosis, and hopefully this will end it. I will have to get a picture of this diseased bull in a day or so.
Chuckie
 
He doesn't sound like a diseased bull to me, you said he has been bright eyed and bushy tailed and in good nick through the whole affair.
I have found over the years with animals with chronic scours, (horses and cattle) after treating to no avail, a change in address will often fix the problem. I don't know why, maybe some plant in the pasture, maybe the change in feed just gets the gut microbes back in gear, maybe just a rest from getting treated. Anyhow if his services aren't needed at the moment and nothing further nasty turns up in the tests it may be worth considering putting him out on agistment for a while. Sometimes we just try too hard.
Usually when they come back after a spell they are ok.
Ken
 
As others have stated, an antibody titer to BVD &/or IBR only mean that your animal's immune system has 'seen' those viruses at some point in the past - whether a field exposure or vaccination. And, as has been stated, a single serologic test doesn't tell you anything more than that. A 'convalescent' sample, collected 3-4 weeks later should demonstrate an increasing/decreasing or stable titer - which would allow us to determine if the animal was or was not responding to a recent infection. Since your bull was probably vaccinated prior to you purchasing him, and again last fall, I'd fully expect him to have a measurable antibody titer.

BVD is insidious. Antigen testing - that is, testing for the presence of the virus itself or viral nucleic acids, are the way to go to determine if an animal is actually infected, or more importantly, if they are a Persistently Infected(PI) animal. Ear notches may be tested by PCR or immunohistochemistry for BVD, or, as we do at the lab where I work, with an Antigen-Capture ELISA - which will work on ear notches, whole blood, or serum.

If I had, or was called out to see, an adult animal that had chronic scours, as you've described, I'd be wanting to do a serologic test and fecal culture for Johne's Disease.
We're seeing more and more cattle farms with populations of nematode parasites that are resistant to ivermectin. The Cydectin may still be effective; it's in the same class with ivermectin but is more potent - but sometime in the not-too-distant future, you're going to reach a point where Cydectin doesn't work either.
But, unless you do a fecal egg count before deworming and again 7-10 days later, you really have no idea whether your 'deworming' was effective. An effective dewormer(given at the appropriate dosage) will reduce fecal egg counts by 90% or more - if you don't get that 90% reduction in egg count, you've got resistant worm.
 
Lucky P
The first time I had him checked, he asked me if I had just wormed him because he said he was clean, but I could not believe that he did not do a coccidiosis test.
What other kind of wormer do you use?
After reading so much on coccidiosis, the vet should have asked more questions, such as if the cows were laying in the wet manure and urine. It was plain to see where the mashed places were made from the bull and the cows.
I may have cleared them out the first two times, but they were waiting to come back.

With all the liquid passing through, he eats and drinks a lot.
Chuckie
 

Latest posts

Top