Buying calves??

[Z&J Cattle]

Hello all. I posted this in the feedyard board and hoped that it might get more action here. We (my dad and I) have sold our cow herd. We have had our farm for sale with no buyer as of yet and we just don't want the farm to sit idle. So, we are thinking of buying a group of calves (400lbs or so) to feed during the winter. We are in GREAT shape on grass since our cows are gone. We only have 4 calves that were late bloomers that we kept when we sold the cows. They weigh around 400lbs and we would like to buy maybe 16 more for an even 20. We should have to feed VERY LITTLE hay given the amount of stockpiled fecsue on hand. Also, I have a friend in the feed business and I can purchase very good quality feed from him for $140/ton. I'm not sure what feed is in you guys/gals areas, but in my area that price is EXTREMELY good for this day and time. Now on to my main question. What do I need to look for in calves when buying at the local sale ring? I am used to buying only cows and just wondered what the key points are to look for in a calf that you plan to feed and sale for the gain. Should I try to stick with one color basically? A couple more things now. Correct me if I am wrong, but is about 5lbs. per head/day a good place to start on calves that size as far as grain goes being that they will also have all the grass they can eat? I am looking to hold them for 120-150 days with a conservative goal (hopefully) of around 1.5lb per day average gain. Does this sound feasible? Some of you will probably ask me for the fat/protein content of the feed and I cannot remember right off the top of my head. But he does test all his feed and it is good quality. I want to say around 12-14% protein but don't hold me to it. Anyway, any help or advice would be greatly appreciated as always.

P.S. We are leaning toward heifers at this point for a few reasons: The first is that in this region, at least at the present, steers are dropping .20 to .25 cents per pound when you go from 400# to 700# while heifers of respectable sizes are only dropping a dime or so. Is this pretty much the norm everywhere all the time? The other is, in the event that the calf market should take a down turn for some unforseen reason, we would have the option to breed the heifers when they come of age and sell them for replacements. With a steer, he pretty much only has one destination and one type of potential buyer. With the heifers, you have a few more options. I would like to maybe put together a "matching" group of BWF heifers. They always do well in this area. Your thoughts?

 

[IluvABbeef]

I'm really iffy about your ideas on heifers. Personally, I think it's virtually impossible to buy the same group of heifers from an auction market that where sold, by the producer's standards, as feeders for beef, and expect them to come up with a # of feasibly breedable females. Of course they're all going to be breedable, but by cow-calf producers that are looking for GOOD replacement heifers, these'll be a joke if you try to sell some "good" ones as replacements. Typically, cattlemen that sell their heifers in the sale barn are selling them because they don't fit in their breeding requirements as replacement heifers...some females might pass off as "Okay" replacement heifers for some producers, but usually they're being sold for one purpose only: as future food for the world, just like steers. And, if you decide to purchase heifers, they'll be eating more feed and growing more slowly than steers at the same age. That's the reason for the discrepancy in the calf prices you've observed. Steers will give you a higher weight than heifers at the same age (heifers will be around 50 to 100 lbs lighter than steers at the same age), and they will convert the feed a might more efficiently than heifers in terms of muscling. Of course there's always risk of getting a one nutter or full bull calf in with the steer calves, but that shouldn't come as a shock. Also, you'll get more profit off of steers than heifers because of the higher weights. So, IMHO, it's STEERS, all the way.

Now, as a backgrounder, I'd be looking for health issues in the group of calves I'm looking to purchase, such as snotty noses, dullness in both behaviour and in their coats and eyes, coughing, and tag from illnesses that will give the calf scours. If there are none of those things present, I'm taking them home. I have very little concern about conformation, as the only things that are of the greatest concern to me is health, and docility because a docile calf is a high weight gain calf. I would also buy them when they are around 5 to 6 weights, as 4-wt is a little too small for my liking. And as for colour, that is another thing I could care less about because in the end when you're selling them, chances are directly to your local feedlot, you're only going to be getting money on how much they weigh, not on the colour of their hides: as we all know, once the hide comes off, it's pretty hard to tell the difference of what breed they are/were. I know you'll get other people seeing this and saying that oh, uniformity has EVERYTHING to do with your $/lb profits, but again, these are stocker calves, being sold for SOLELY meat production, not for colour-of-hide production. I'll admit it's a tad different if your re-selling these calves to the feedlot through the auction ring because auctioneers love to sell their cattle according to the latest trends in hide colour and the fact that they look Angusie, (black being the popular guy), and other folks that always have to go with the rest of the crowd buy into that too easily. (But these are my personal views, not trying to stir up a hornet's nest here. ) Calves that do well and I'd go with, if I wanted to have a realtively uniform stocker herd (I'm emphasizing IF here), I'd be looking for black baldies and/or buckskin/yellow baldies....though since you say the BB's do best in your area, go for them then.

Your ration for grain sounds about right, as these are being backgrounded and fed enough to be putting on muscle and meet their growing demands, not put a whole cr@p load of fat on in the little # of days they're being backgrounded. Not only that, but backgrounded calves are supposed to have that ADG, some even up to ~2 lbs/day, and, you're right on with the % of crude protein needed in their diet...though I'd shoot closer to 16% for your 4-wts. 500#-600# can have 14% CP, and progressively lesser as they get bigger...if you're shooting to sell them when they're ~750 to 800 lbs, their rations in crude protein should be down to ~12%. Stockpiled grass might work, but you'll really have to supplement with mineral, grain or good quality hay because they're eating a low quality forage, something that mature cows should be on instead, and they, the feeder calves, won't do that well on stockpiled forage alone...though I'm sure you are aware of that already.

Hope that helps. If I've missed anything I'm sure there's plenty of folks who are willing to fill in the missing details for me.

Good luck!

 

[Brandonm22]

I don't know Karin. A lot of herds in the South are started by buying 400 or 500 pound weaned heifers at the stockyard. This is not that uncommon at all.....though you better be vaccinating for all things viral. It looks better if you are patient and buy the same kind of calf (black, white, red, or Brahman-x) rather than just buying one of this and one of that. If I were going to do this, I would buy all English appearing black or black white faced heifer calves. Take them to 650 to 700 pounds and then AI them to a "name" Angus AI bull, preferably Bon View New Design 878. Then consign them to a replacement cattle Special sale a year from now as springers. IF you have a decent eye and good grass, those heifers will bring just as much at auction as a set of home raised bred heifers. If they sell the farm, just run the feeder heifers back through the sale without breeding as spring stockers weighing 700 to 800 lbs.

 

[IluvABbeef]

I don't know Karin. Take them to 650 to 700 pounds and then AI them to a "name" Angus AI bull, preferably Bon View New Design 878. Then consign them to a replacement cattle Special sale a year from now as springers. IF you have a decent eye and good grass, those heifers will bring just as much at auction as a set of home raised bred heifers. If they sell the farm, just run the feeder heifers back through the sale without breeding as spring stockers weighing 700 to 800 lbs.

But even then, I still think that it's just more unnecessary work to have a few heifers to be used as breeding, because what if looks can be deceiving and they end up giving you something that you weren't expecting to deal with? Maybe it's just me or I'm in a bit of an argumentative state tonight after having a stupid argument with a vegan, but I still hold my opinion on them heifers.

 

[Z&J Cattle]

Sounds like some good points are made by both. Thank you both for the insight. May not know which direction we will end up going until we get to the sale

 

[BC]

I agree with Brandon. In my part of east Texas, alot of good Brangus type heifers are sold at the sale barns right off the cow. Sometimes they bring as much as their steer mates because they grow up to be solid mothers. People buy them, grow them, breed them and resell them as replacements all the time. The ones that don;t work out are sold as feeder heifers.

 

[Brandonm22]

Karin, I will admit that I would prefer to see the sire, the dam, the conditions under which the heifer was raised, etc; but if a heifer has good phenotype she has good phenotype. They are not that hard to spot. You might have to sit through 50 that aren't what you want to find one that will work; but when there are five hundred or a thousand calves in the barn it is not that difficult to find a dozen or so decent commercial heifers. If one don't grow out like you expected it to, send her to the barn before breeding; but that happens with ones you keep from your own herd as well.

Where people usually screw up in the sale barn is that they look at price instead of at the heifers. The order buyers will be buying them at ~$1.05, $1.05, $1.04, $1.07, $1.03 (just to throw some hypothetical numbers out there), then one goes $.94 and THAT is when some goof in the stands bids. The dude just "saved" $50; but he just bought some narrow made, post legged, wormy, muscle grade 3, heifer with a runny nose whose momma obviously didn't milk worth a diddly. That heifer won't bring much over the kill price when he brings her back bred in a year and she will get docked more than 10 cents if he brings her back as a stocker. Some of those premium $1.05 heifers would bring $900 (or more) as bred heifers and if he calves them out those premium heifers will generally make that $50 premium back on the first calf.

 

[backhoeboogie]

then one goes $.94 and THAT is when some goof in the stands bids.

Doodlers. Rannies. You also have to watch for traders too. It also depends on the sale.

When bidding goes cold, there is usually a reason. If the ring man starts one lower than what he has been starting, he has generally spotted something. Look close.

 

[BC]

Sometimes you can find cattle that have good bone, are phenotypically what you want but have been undernourished because their owner was overstocked. Those are the real bargains. They will sell for $5 to $10 per cwt back of the #1 cattle and by next year you can not tell them apart. These are called upgradables. It is not something easy to teach, you just have to learn the hard way and not all will upgrade.

 

[Brandonm22]

Sometimes you can find cattle that have good bone, are phenotypically what you want but have been undernourished because their owner was overstocked. Those are the real bargains. They will sell for $5 to $10 per cwt back of the #1 cattle and by next year you can not tell them apart. These are called upgradables. It is not something easy to teach, you just have to learn the hard way and not all will upgrade.

I agree totally. There are backgrounders whose whole business is turning around mismanaged calves. That still can be a dangerous game. IF you really are NOT a pro and you are in the sale barn to buy replacement quality heifers you probably are safer to avoid those "deal" calves.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Karin, I will admit that I would prefer to see the sire, the dam, the conditions under which the heifer was raised, etc; but if a heifer has good phenotype she has good phenotype. They are not that hard to spot. You might have to sit through 50 that aren't what you want to find one that will work; but when there are five hundred or a thousand calves in the barn it is not that difficult to find a dozen or so decent commercial heifers. If one don't grow out like you expected it to, send her to the barn before breeding; but that happens with ones you keep from your own herd as well.

Where people usually screw up in the sale barn is that they look at price instead of at the heifers. The order buyers will be buying them at ~$1.05, $1.05, $1.04, $1.07, $1.03 (just to throw some hypothetical numbers out there), then one goes $.94 and THAT is when some goof in the stands bids. The dude just "saved" $50; but he just bought some narrow made, post legged, wormy, muscle grade 3, heifer with a runny nose whose momma obviously didn't milk worth a diddly. That heifer won't bring much over the kill price when he brings her back bred in a year and she will get docked more than 10 cents if he brings her back as a stocker. Some of those premium $1.05 heifers would bring $900 (or more) as bred heifers and if he calves them out those premium heifers will generally make that $50 premium back on the first calf.

Okay, but this is where I have to say that sometimes phenotype isn't everything. What about genotype? What if this calf that had good weaning weight, is in good condition, was born as a large calf to a smaller mother? Then THAT get passed on to the heifer, and when SHE calves, be it bull or heifer, chances are we'll have a case of dystocia in our hands. There's other things too: what if this heifer doesn't do well in the environment you've provided for her, like that particularly being a harsher environment than she was raised from.

I know I'm not going to win this arguement, but I'm just trying to make a point here: I, personally, wouldn't purchase a heifer without knowing things like this, including seeing the dam and sire.

 

[Brandonm22]

Karin nobody wins or loses anything on a message board. OF COURSE, heifers from a known breeder, with a known pedigree, known breeding, who has had all of it's shots, known age, known performance, etc and have a breeding guarantee are worth MORE money than similar heifers at the auction with uncertain breeding, anonymous parentage, uncertain age, no EPDs, probably no shots, one or more heifers from the barns PROBABLY have been exposed (or are carrying) BVD, IBR, Johnes, and/or something worse, and they sell AS IS WHERE IS with no guarantee of anything. The ONLY advantage the sale barns offer is price and convenience. IF you were buying 50 heifers to establish yourself in the cattle business it probably pays in the long run to pay the premium for the performance heifers. Now in Z&J's scenario, he was buying heifers too resell within a year. IT would be hard for him to get a premium AFTER he paid a premium. IF he makes any money at all, he has to buy the heifers cheap....then add value to them.

 

[Z&J Cattle]

Thanks again everyone for all the great info in this thread. We managed to pick up 11 heifers last night. I will go back this Friday and try to get another 5. I want to have a total of 16. We went to the barn before the sale started and walked through and looked at all the calves in the pens. At first, it looked like the selection would be slim at best, but as luck would have it, the trailers came pouring in later in the afternoon and a lot of good calves sold. I feel like we got a pretty good group put together. We ended up with 7 black and 4 BWF. I want to try next week to buy all or nearly all BWF and run about half and half. I passed on a few good looking calves, but some of them were a little cagey and didn't have the disposition that I was looking for. We have had some crazies in the past, and I WILL NOT tolerate them. Another thing is that we ended up going with a little bigger calves than originally anticipated. The stuff right at 400 up to 425 was bringing $1.00, but ours averaged 500 with a range from 465 to 535 with a total average cost per head @ $430 which it within pennies of the total cost of the 400# stuff. If they do grow off good and after further evaulation we decide to sell them as replacements possibly even breeding them and selling them as springers, then they will be of age/weight a little earlier than if we had went with calves at 400#. I went out to the corral at daylight this morning anxious to walk through the group for a better look. If nothing else, we hit a homerun on calves with good dispositions. I stepped back into the corner of the corral after I walked through them and leaned up against the gate, they all came over to me, about half of them walked right up to me and smelled my clothes. We ran them through the chute, gave them their vaccinations, pulled the sale barn stickers off, examined them, etc.... That part could not have gone smoother. I only have one that I wish I had not come home with. I think she is the only one (maybe one more at most) that wasn't weaned until yesterday, but the main thing is that she has some tiny little tippy horns that I did not catch. She is one of the BWFs and her hair had them hidden. They are still hard to spot even knowing they are there, but that will all change as they continue to grow. The more I look at her, she just does not "fit" the group. My dad wants to haul her back and trade her off next week when we go to buy more, but my concern is that she will lose several pounds, losing us money. He says it would be worth a little loss to get something that is more along the lines of what we are looking for. What would you all do on this situation? Again, thanks for all the info and keep it coming.

Zach

 

[SRBeef]

...My dad wants to haul her back and trade her off next week when we go to buy more, but my concern is that she will lose several pounds, losing us money. He says it would be worth a little loss to get something that is more along the lines of what we are looking for. What would you all do on this situation? Again, thanks for all the info and keep it coming.

Zach

Listen to your Dad. A couple dollars will not seem like so much after a year of wishing that one was not there. Good advice.

 

[BC]

Okay, but this is where I have to say that sometimes phenotype isn't everything. What about genotype? What if this calf that had good weaning weight, is in good condition, was born as a large calf to a smaller mother? Then THAT get passed on to the heifer, and when SHE calves, be it bull or heifer, chances are we'll have a case of dystocia in our hands. There's other things too: what if this heifer doesn't do well in the environment you've provided for her, like that particularly being a harsher environment than she was raised from.

I know I'm not going to win this arguement, but I'm just trying to make a point here: I, personally, wouldn't purchase a heifer without knowing things like this, including seeing the dam and sire.[/quote]

I was recently at the Noble Foundation in Ardmore, OK and they have been conducting a demonstration where they bought 200 Angus heifers that were 1/2 sisters from Montana and 200 locally produced Angus heifers . The two groups were gate cut and then bred AI either to an Angus or a Limousin. Clean up bulls were full brother sons of each bull. The calves were followed all the way to the feedlot and harvest with performance measured at various times in the production phase.

The interesting thing was that there was no statistical advantage to the calves from the 1/2 sisters from Montana over the locally grown females. The only real differences were in sire groups. As expected the Angus sired calves produced more choice carcasses, the Limousin sired calves produced had more YG 2 and bigger ribeyes. 3 or 4 years worth of data.

 

[Howdyjabo]

Financially the thing to do (if you have decided she needs to go) is to take her back to the next sale---
But if you do -----you are potentially harming the calf and the next buyer.
Plus if you worked her up-- you will be illegal as there is no way she is going to be clean

Keep her for 4-6 wks- clean her up and then sell her. Or keep her several more months and try to make some money on her.