Buying a breeding bull through the ring

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3waycross

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OakCreekRanch":u9a93lqo said:
I got my bulls from the sale barn and we're happy with their calves so far. A man's cull is another man's treasure!


What's your criteria for selection at the Salebarn.
 

regolith

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mwj":3gb52bug said:
If it is for sale period it is a cull. Any livestock that is not culled would be retained.

That's just word play. The post specified bulls being sent for slaughter.

I was speaking to another farmer recently and he looked shocked when I said I'd 'culled' an in-calf heifer for sucking on another heifer. "Crikey, that's harsh when a nose ring would have fixed it!"
Except I didn't cull one of my top heifers to slaughter as he'd thought - I culled her from the herd by adding her to a group of sound young cows I was selling and explaining to the buyer exactly why she was in the group. Mostly the word is used for cattle going to slaughter but the broader definition is also correct.
 

OakCreekRanch

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3waycross":2syqeilt said:
OakCreekRanch":2syqeilt said:
I got my bulls from the sale barn and we're happy with their calves so far. A man's cull is another man's treasure!


What's your criteria for selection at the Salebarn.
I always passed up pitiful looking bulls and any bulls that ain't Angus. Just eyeing on how the bulls walking around in the ring. If he is free of health problems, is in great shape for a breeding season and decent looking I would buy him. We don't use these bulls on our heifers for obvious reasons.

We brought our first bull "Little Guy" from the sale barn as a weaned calf many years ago. Someone forgot to cut him and I got him for less than $600. Grew him out during the winter and let him ran with 5-6 cows after the calving season. It was sad to see him go after two breeding seasons as we retained most of his daughters.
 

Bigfoot

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It is not inconceivable that a good bull could come through a sale barn. We have a test pen for bulls at our local stockyard. They sell at the front of the sale, and bulls bound for slaughter are at the end of the sale. I have had such terrible luck the last 18 months buying bulls, I am going back to raising my own.
 

branguscowgirl

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I took an awesome bull to the sale yard once. Really hated to sell him there. He was an IA calf I had raised. In my small herd of related mothers, I had no one to breed him to. Plus I needed the $! Not a thing wrong with him.......
 

AngelaFromAbilene

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AussieLim":15n6f7z9 said:
Why buy someone's cull? A bull is responsible for 50% of his progeny a genes and can have 50-60 calves a year in a seasonal joining. Why would u buy a cull to be the one that is responsible for much of your progenies performance.

They are not all culls. When I run a bull through the ring, it's not because he's a cull, of any sort. It's becasue we have kept enough of his daughters and do not want to breed them back to their sire. In the past 4 years, I have sold a son of Conneally Freightliner and a son of B/R New Frontier. Both were top of the line Angus bulls, easy to handle and quite prolific. Both brought top dollar and went back to a herd. Both buyers continue to be more than pleased with these bulls and anxiously await my next bull offering. I also have them trich tested because it is required in Texas. As I have a closed herd, it's pointless but none the less, it's the law.
 

3waycross

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AngelaFromAbilene":321hj404 said:
AussieLim":321hj404 said:
Why buy someone's cull? A bull is responsible for 50% of his progeny a genes and can have 50-60 calves a year in a seasonal joining. Why would u buy a cull to be the one that is responsible for much of your progenies performance.

They are not all culls. When I run a bull through the ring, it's not because he's a cull, of any sort. It's becasue we have kept enough of his daughters and do not want to breed them back to their sire. In the past 4 years, I have sold a son of Conneally Freightliner and a son of B/R New Frontier. Both were top of the line Angus bulls, easy to handle and quite prolific. Both brought top dollar and went back to a herd. Both buyers continue to be more than pleased with these bulls and anxiously await my next bull offering. I also have them trich tested because it is required in Texas. As I have a closed herd, it's pointless but none the less, it's the law.

That's just exactly the reason Trich gets spread. Thinking it's pointless. If your neighbor has a bull that is infected and jumps the fence to breed some of your cows is you herd still "closed"
BTW when you get done with that herd bull do you take the papers to the salebarn and post them on the wall so that a potential buyer can see the EPD's and do you also have him semen and trich tested so that he will know that he is buying a trich free and fertility tested bull.
Not saying that doesn't happen but bulls are sold for the wrong reasons a lot more than the right ones(ie. he outlived his usefullness in my herd)
 

TexasBred

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wacocowboy":10wxcls6 said:
the sales I go to here in Texas if you buy him for a breeder he is tested before he leaves the sale barn
BSE only. Trich test has to be done in a state approved lab and signed by their agent. Bull has to be quaranteened on your farm for 30 days from date of purchase.

Perhaps "CULL" is not the right word. it may be a cull for one buyer to go to slaughter and a herd prospect for another. Who makes that determination? Some bulls are sold because the operation needs a new bull. This one has served his purpose. It doesn't necessarily mean he's a cull. Just no longer needed...trading material more of less like big time football players. :lol2:
 

mwj

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I guess the word ''cull'' needs defined. How many bulls go to the packers every day that by your own standards would not be a cull. We are told by all the ''brains'' in the business that we need to upgrade our genetics so we buy bulls. We have to move a bull on or we have more bulls than cows. If the bull was useful in your herd till the new bull arrived why is he a cull when he walks on the trailer? :???:
 

TexasBred

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mwj":2y73nm3x said:
I guess the word ''cull'' needs defined. How many bulls go to the packers every day that by your own standards would not be a cull. We are told by all the ''brains'' in the business that we need to upgrade our genetics so we buy bulls. We have to move a bull on or we have more bulls than cows. If the bull was useful in your herd till the new bull arrived why is he a cull when he walks on the trailer? :???:

Is every cow you sell a cull?? Everything on my place is for sale...Perhaps he's bred all the cattle and you want a new bull for the next season? Maybe the market is high for bulls? Numerous reasons. I've sold several young bulls over the years that were definitely not culls. Just needed a new home and hopefully do a good job for the new owner.
 

mwj

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TexasBred":30espr0l said:
mwj":30espr0l said:
I guess the word ''cull'' needs defined. How many bulls go to the packers every day that by your own standards would not be a cull. We are told by all the ''brains'' in the business that we need to upgrade our genetics so we buy bulls. We have to move a bull on or we have more bulls than cows. If the bull was useful in your herd till the new bull arrived why is he a cull when he walks on the trailer? :???:

Is every cow you sell a cull?? Everything on my place is for sale...Perhaps he's bred all the cattle and you want a new bull for the next season? Maybe the market is high for bulls? Numerous reasons. I've sold several young bulls over the years that were definitely not culls. Just needed a new home and hopefully do a good job for the new owner.


I agree 100% and that was my point. People say sale-barn and cull in the same breath. Would you buy a good used bull if he were tested?
 

TexasBred

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mwj":7kgjzlhs said:
TexasBred":7kgjzlhs said:
mwj":7kgjzlhs said:
I guess the word ''cull'' needs defined. How many bulls go to the packers every day that by your own standards would not be a cull. We are told by all the ''brains'' in the business that we need to upgrade our genetics so we buy bulls. We have to move a bull on or we have more bulls than cows. If the bull was useful in your herd till the new bull arrived why is he a cull when he walks on the trailer? :???:

Is every cow you sell a cull?? Everything on my place is for sale...Perhaps he's bred all the cattle and you want a new bull for the next season? Maybe the market is high for bulls? Numerous reasons. I've sold several young bulls over the years that were definitely not culls. Just needed a new home and hopefully do a good job for the new owner.


I agree 100% and that was my point. People say sale-barn and cull in the same breath. Would you buy a good used bull if he were tested?

Have done it several times.
 

Dave

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I have never bought an older bull but have often thought it would pay to do it. Most of the time it would cost one bid over kill price. Turn him out for 60 days and haul him back. Not out a lot of money and you would get most if not all of it back in a short period of time. No feeding a bull over the non-breeding season (and they eat a lot). And if you are in this part of the world where they get branded you can pay attention and pick up a bull from a known quality breeding program.
 

Beef Man

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I'm pretty sure that you have to have apermit to get a used bull inspected out to any place except a slaughter facility. We have a permit to go to accepted feedlot and of coarse then to slaughter.There is enough problems without buying a old used bull to go back to the breeding herd!!
 

TennesseeTuxedo

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Dave":3h4cg7bl said:
I have never bought an older bull but have often thought it would pay to do it. Most of the time it would cost one bid over kill price. Turn him out for 60 days and haul him back. Not out a lot of money and you would get most if not all of it back in a short period of time. No feeding a bull over the non-breeding season (and they eat a lot). And if you are in this part of the world where they get branded you can pay attention and pick up a bull from a known quality breeding program.

Dave, it might pay to buddy up to the well known quality breeder and offer to buy their retired bulls directly off the farm.
 

bse

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I don't think in TN you have to have anything other than enough money to pay for him. The last 2 I took to the salebarn had used up there usefulness here and I did leave the papers with the bulls but no transfer, if whoever got them wanted papers I would have transferred them on there dime. They weren't lame or anything, seems some folks around here don't want to buy an aged bull from an individual but will go to the sale barn and try and get whatever.
 

Dave

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TennesseeTuxedo":3j5lg356 said:
Dave":3j5lg356 said:
I have never bought an older bull but have often thought it would pay to do it. Most of the time it would cost one bid over kill price. Turn him out for 60 days and haul him back. Not out a lot of money and you would get most if not all of it back in a short period of time. No feeding a bull over the non-breeding season (and they eat a lot). And if you are in this part of the world where they get branded you can pay attention and pick up a bull from a known quality breeding program.

Dave, it might pay to buddy up to the well known quality breeder and offer to buy their retired bulls directly off the farm.

I have a pretty good source for bulls that are well bred for an affordable price so I have never done it. But I do know a guy who does just that. He runs about 400 momma cows. He buys an older herd bull from a breeder. Uses him on what he considers about 20 of his best cows. Then he holds back most of the bull calves. But then he has the expense of raising the bulls. I know he is happy with it.....
What I was talking about is the smaller guy with 10-20 cows. Buying a single bull. Breeding the cows and getting rid of the bull. The calves may be off a notch but the savings in not buying a more expensive bull and maintaining him could more than make up the difference.
 

u4411clb

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I will be selling probably the best bull we have ever owned through the sale ring in April. He is only 6 years old I would hope that someone would take him home and made a herd bull out of him. I just don't want to go through hassle of selling him private when they are bringing over $1 a pound and would figure he will be over a ton. That would be a little less than what I would have asked private treaty anyway and I get my check in one day. Only places we have ever taken our bulls all registered and most good bulls in their own right is the sale barn. Unless a person is digging holes on their property and putting up tombstones for their bulls they all sooner or later gonna end up at sale barn.
 

MacGillivrayAngus

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There is a lot of good discussion here, and as you can see there are many different answers. The common thread between them all is “It depends on your own personal goals”

The impact of a bull can have a huge impact on the success or failure of your herd, and understanding the cows within your herd is jump as important, but since this conversation is about bulls, I’ll keep to that. Everyone always has their own niche in the market that they are trying to fill; Cow/Calf, Feeders/Stockers, Heifer Development or a Seedstock operation. You have to first identify where you and your herd fit in, what is hurting you the most and how to improve on that.

Here is my take on why purchasing a quality breeding bull is so important as it can influence your bottom line for years to come. Buying a bull through the sale barn is just like purchasing a car through a used car auction and you can only judge that bull on his physical phenotype and disposition at that time. With the amount of crossbreeding that has been done over the years, even being confident in his breed purity is difficult. If you were purchasing a car for your daughter so that can she move across the country to go to school, would you put her in a car that you only got to look at for a couple of minutes?

A bull can be one of the single most important investments you make into your cattle operation and is responsible for 50% of the genetics in his offspring.

Let’s put this into some numbers and I’ll be conservative here.

Say you use your bull for 4 years on 25 cows, so over the life of that bull you get 100 offspring.
-Let’s say by using a Low Birth weight, easy calving bull, you get 1-3 more live calves out of that 100 than using an “average” bull. Using $1.50/lb for a 500lb calf, that is $750-$2250 in additional revenue.
-Now let’s say that by using a bull that transmits a high Average Daily Gain and converts efficiently. With an additional 40-50 pounds per calf, that can mean an additional $7,500 in revenue in a Cow/Calf operation.
-Now, let’s say you retain those cattle and feed them out. Sure you can just get paid market price, but if you buy a good bull that passes on high quality carcass traits, you could be looking at an additional $30 per CWT if you get paid on the grid. Or let’s say you run a freezer beef program and can now ask a huge premium to consumers for your quality beef. This could add 10’s of Thousands of revenue dollars to your operation.

So, with the purchase of a bull that excels at all of this, over the course of 4-5 years, you could easily add ~$45,000 of revenue to your operation. Not many places in life can you find that Return on Investment.

Let’s say you go to the sale barn, and pick out a bad bull. Sure the calves look ok, but they do not perform in the feedlot or on the grid. The same thing could work in reverse, and you could lose out on ~$45,000.

My grandfather, Maurice Boney, always told me to buy the best bull you can afford. If a bull at the sale barn is the best bull you can afford, then be darned sure and try and get the best one there. If you can afford more, do research, understand what works well with your own cows. Talk to other ranchers, experiment with AI, use EPD’s if available, but always BUY THE BEST BULL YOU CAN AFFORD.
 

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