Bulls; what's the difference

[Alan]

I have wondered, on more than one occassion, what the real difference is between a "world class" bull, such as a M326 or Online and a herd bull with simalar or the same epd's and phenotype. Does it just come down to the marketing of the bull? Or simply one comes in a straw and one doesn't? or is there more?

Any thoughts?
Alan

 

[Frankie]

I have wondered, on more than one occassion, what the real difference is between a "world class" bull, such as a M326 or Online and a herd bull with simalar or the same epd's and phenotype. Does it just come down to the marketing of the bull? Or simply one comes in a straw and one doesn't? or is there more?

Any thoughts?
Alan

I think the ability to market a bull is the difference. We can sell Angus bulls. If they have good EPDs, look good, good performance data, we have no problem selling them. But half the calves born here will be heifers. And other Angus breeders just aren't interested in paying for granddaughters of well known bulls. They want daughters of EXT, Foresight, 878. That's why we've resisted using our own bulls, and I think we're raising some good ones. We can use the advertising of ABS, GENEX, etc., to market our females. Plus those AI bulls get proven quicker than a bull used in someone's herd.

 

[mnmtranching]

I think you can buy as good a herd bull, as the best of the AI bulls.

Why? Say a bull goes on test, has these tremendous EPD's. Breeders all over are using his semen. Mating to cows that are descendents
of other top performing bulls. These offspring that go to bull sales for the commercial cattlemen are from the best of the best. No need to do AI for the commercial cattlemen. Same quality bulls are available at $1200 to 2000.

 

[Brandonm2]

I have wondered, on more than one occassion, what the real difference is between a "world class" bull, such as a M326 or Online and a herd bull with simalar or the same epd's and phenotype. Does it just come down to the marketing of the bull? Or simply one comes in a straw and one doesn't? or is there more?

Any thoughts?
Alan

At first it comes down to the marketing, THEN it comes down to predicatability. Sure you COULD have a bull out in the pasture who is just AS good as Online or Feltons 517 with the exact same phenotype and EPDs; but since he does not breed as many registered cows and is used in only one herd CAN I believe those low accuracy EPDs? New Design 878 (in the Angus breed) has THOUSANDS of daughters. You can look at the EPDs and actually eyeball 50+++ progeny yourself and KNOW what to expect from 878. Obviously, even if your bull looks like a clone; but has neither the reputation or the high accuracy numbers most people would prefer the proven bull. And sons of aren't the same thing as the sire himself. Take EXT for example, you can see sons of his ALL OVER THE MAP in terms of progeny performance. The sire is only half the genetics and true greatness is rare. It is hard too duplicate EVEN in the sons. There is much less to risk in using the sire himself instead of the best son you can find and a whole lot less than using a sire 'that traces back to' the sire you really wanted in the first place. That is why we promote both the genetics AND the breeder. IF your buyers trust that the breeder knows what he is doing, they will often buy bulls EVEN when they aren't completely familiar with the bulls in the pedigree.

 

[MikeC]

There is a direct correlation between a bull's value and how much you can talk about him. :lol:

Seriously, a lot of bulls who sold for big money wound up being a bust.

And some who were bought for chicken feed became top semen sellers.

Life's a gamble.

 

[ga. prime]

Alan, yes it is marketing. Minnesota Man, you can't get "same quality" for $1200-$2000 at any sale I've been to in the past 5 years. You get the dregs for that price. It takes $3000-$5000 to get top quality in this locale..Angus I'm talking of. Brandon, I greatly respect your opinions, but you lost me here. You're saying what?

 

[ArrowHBrand]

I think you can buy as good a herd bull, as the best of the AI bulls.

Why? Say a bull goes on test, has these tremendous EPD's. Breeders all over are using his semen. Mating to cows that are descendents
of other top performing bulls. These offspring that go to bull sales for the commercial cattlemen are from the best of the best. No need to do AI for the commercial cattlemen. Same quality bulls are available at $1200 to 2000.

Well said. We bought an Angus bull this year with EPD's out of the roof, plus he looks good, and most of all have a great temperment for between that price range. There's nothing wrong with AI sires, and we use them to improve the genetics of our herd. I think it's about advertising and the ability to market your bull to a core group of people. Get some calves on the ground that perform as good, should be better, than your bull and you are going somewhere. Be careful though. I was told once that when something goes right a person will tell 3 or 4 people. However, when something goes wrong a person will tell everyone! If you market a bull as a top performer and he doesn't produce, your rep will be doomed for a long time.

 

[Angus In Texas]

A lot has to do with the fact that AI sires are able to transmit the quality across a broad spectrum of cattle. In other words more often than not the calves out of said bull will be better than the dam they are out of but not necessarily better than the sire which is why very few sons of great AI sires become great AI sires as well, even though we know it happens all the time. Speculation on young sires causes the high purchase prices just like speculators in the oil industry.... it takes big risks to return big rewards and then sometimes you just get plain lucky.

Even though G A R Integrity sold for $255,000, and then proceded to flop majorly, the folks that bought him made money because everyone bit into the hype. However, Integrity wasn't a lasting force due to the lack of performance.

You can find several young sires as well as young females that are non-parents and have incredibly high EPD's for WW, YW, %IMF, UREA, and $B that will eventually fall into line with the masses due to their progeny. This happens due to how the animals where set up into contemporary groups, how they were fed within those groups and what the pedigrees of the other animals in the group were. If you don't think some ranches influence EPD's legitimately through selective contemporary grouping you are naive. However, when these animals leave their original herd their true value often starts to show.....especially with sires that are promoted for AI use.

So yes marketing has a lot to do with it but the accuracies of the EPD's has a bigger influence in the long run. As well as the longevity, phenotype and general production aspects that are not quantitative.

 

[novatech]

I have wondered, on more than one occassion, what the real difference is between a "world class" bull, such as a M326 or Online and a herd bull with simalar or the same epd's and phenotype. Does it just come down to the marketing of the bull? Or simply one comes in a straw and one doesn't? or is there more?

Any thoughts?
Alan

When buying a young bull it is a crap shoot. That bull may or may not pass on the genetics you are looking for. There are no records to back it up. When useing AI there are usually records of hundreds if not thousands of progeny one can look at. It is not just the EPD but the percent accuracy that is important.
I never use the new up and comming AI bulls, they are just as unproven as buying your own.

 

[Limomike]

A crap shoot is exactly what it is. Just like that young bull that was given to me I posted a few pics of him on here. Mostly got some bad reviews, and a few pokin fun at him. But, for the most part, he has good progeny, and for some reason in the past two weeks, he has been putting on the weight, and muscle. He is growing up fast. (must be some of that growth weight booster hes been chowing on) ha..
Still have to sit back and watch... He may not be able to even do his job.. haha

 

[BRG]

I would rather use a young bull that I have personally seen, done my homework on, seen his dam and grand dam, seen his sire, know the feet, legs, and udder history of the family, than use a bull just because he is popular and took a great photo and is in some stud somewhere. I know their are very good AI bulls, but if I don't get to see a family or at least his dam. I am not interested.

 

[Limomike]

BRG, thats why I accepted the bull I did. His momma was a Grand Champion in a SE OKlahoma show, and his Daddy was a really great bull. His brother, I have seen him, and he is a fine specimen of a bull. Great frame, muscle, temperament, and produces some awesome calves. So, I figure what do I have to lose?

 

[dun]

Even when you've seen the family it's still a crap shoot. You see so many flush mates that some are really good and some are pretty poor. Then you get into if a specific mating will nick, or at least nick the majority of the time. That's part of why cow-calf is so enjoyable/disappointing.

 

[Brandonm2]

Brandon, I greatly respect your opinions, but you lost me here. You're saying what?

IF you go back to the original question, Alan is asking what is the difference between a big name bull and an 'unknown' bull who MAY be just as good. My answer (though a bit wordy) is that early on it is just marketing; BUT once used in numerous herds, the very fact that the bull has been proven with hundreds of progeny in the feedlot, in the show ring, in the pasture, and that he now has those high accuracy EPDs and that family album full of successful progeny makes him worth more than a less utilized and still basically unproven cousin.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

i was talking to a good cattleman i know awhile back. about the bull 'power play 70 that did so well at the auburn bull test years ago. and brought 320.000 said his did the same the next year and only brought 3000.00

 

[Angus In Texas]

ALACOWMAN,

That situation could have been based on the pedigrees. Some cow families are known to propagate better offspring no matter how you breed them. And some pedigrees are too closely related to the majority of the cattle in the breed therefore have a reduced value.

Then again a lot of it probably has to do with what ranch bred him and what kind of reputation they have for producing quality cattle. I am not familar with the particular situation that you are talking about just making an observation.

 

[SEC]

While I am not a GAR Integrity fan mainly because of his pedigree but to be fair we shouldn't write the bull off a as a flop.


What does everyone think of Traveler 71, Traveler 5204?

They sure don't blow the doors off of performance but have made their mark in the industry.

 

[jscunn]

I agree SEC. Someone I trust has seen some Integrity bred heifers and 2 yr olds he sure did like, and he is not a fan of that pedigree BTW.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

ALACOWMAN,

That situation could have been based on the pedigrees. Some cow families are known to propagate better offspring no matter how you breed them. And some pedigrees are too closely related to the majority of the cattle in the breed therefore have a reduced value.

f

• Then again a lot of it probably has to do with what ranch bred him and what kind of reputation they have

or producing quality cattle. I am not familar with the particular situation that you are talking about just making an observation.

well i understand that for sure...but this man is a good cattleman but not a great advertiser his bulls stay near or at the top on performance at the bull test. that was just a he!! of a wide span on bulls that performed close to the same.and most likely in reality one no better than the other.

 

[Brandonm2]

ALACOWMAN,

That situation could have been based on the pedigrees. Some cow families are known to propagate better offspring no matter how you breed them. And some pedigrees are too closely related to the majority of the cattle in the breed therefore have a reduced value.

f

• Then again a lot of it probably has to do with what ranch bred him and what kind of reputation they have

or producing quality cattle. I am not familar with the particular situation that you are talking about just making an observation.

well i understand that for sure...but this man is a good cattleman but not a great advertiser his bulls stay near or at the top on performance at the bull test. that was just a he!! of a wide span on bulls that performed close to the same.and most likely in reality one no better than the other.

Actually, I was under the impression that Lovana was the FIRST 7 frame Angus at the Auburn Bull test and that he had the highest ADG for an Angus to that point. Those marks have been duplicated and surpassed many times since (though his numbers are still impressive) ; BUT it pays sometimes to be "FIRST". Why pay $5000 for your friend's bull that next year, when you could buy semen from Lovana and his sire PS Powerplay?