BSE trail goes cold

[Farminlund]

I just read in the local paper that the AL investigation trail ended at the aution house that sold the BSE infected cow to the current owner about a year ago.

I find that hard to understand - how could a sale barn not have records of who sold a cow about a year ago?

Just wondering if those with much more experience with cattle sales could shed some light on this unfortunate turn of events.

 

[Bez!]

I just read in the local paper that the AL investigation trail ended at the aution house that sold the BSE infected cow to the current owner about a year ago.

I find that hard to understand - how could a sale barn not have records of who sold a cow about a year ago?

Just wondering if those with much more experience with cattle sales could shed some light on this unfortunate turn of events.

No surprize here at all.

If there is no mandatory trail, why would someone even bother to keep records.

There is serious opposition to this mandatory ID because it apparently has NO value - according to many who would oppose it.

Once the money has changed hands from buyer to seller - the deal is done. Move on to the next deal.

Folks here like to say a brand is the only true ID. Well, I wonder if this cow had traveled through a bunch of states and had been through a bunch of barns how one could keep track anyways. Needs to be something a bit more thorough - after all it certainly will not provide birthdate.

I have one cow on this place that has lived in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec. She has visited British Columbia and she has visited New Brunswick. In other words - from coast to coast and back to the middle.

A distance of several thousands miles. She has been owned by - I think - 9 different owners for various reasons. She is 7 years old.

For those of you who have a fairly large herd of animals and have imported new additions from the sale barns in your area - do you KNOW you could trace each of those animals back to their place of birth and prove their birthdate?

Here we simply have another example of the VALUE of a mandatory ID plan. But there will be many who continue to oppose for various reasons - cost and privacy being two.

So solve the problem and get on with it. Someday it might actually save the industry - or even a whole bunch of lives.

Off my stump now,

Bez!

 

[rk]

I just read in the local paper that the AL investigation trail ended at the aution house that sold the BSE infected cow to the current owner about a year ago.

I find that hard to understand - how could a sale barn not have records of who sold a cow about a year ago?

Just wondering if those with much more experience with cattle sales could shed some light on this unfortunate turn of events.

No surprize here at all.

If there is no mandatory trail, why would someone even bother to keep records.

There is serious opposition to this mandatory ID because it apparently has NO value - according to many who would oppose it.

Once the money has changed hands from buyer to seller - the deal is done. Move on to the next deal.

Folks here like to say a brand is the only true ID. Well, I wonder if this cow had traveled through a bunch of states and had been through a bunch of barns how one could keep track anyways. Needs to be something a bit more thorough - after all it certainly will not provide birthdate.

I have one cow on this place that has lived in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec. She has visited British Columbia and she has visited New Brunswick. In other words - from coast to coast and back to the middle.

A distance of several thousands miles. She has been owned by - I think - 9 different owners for various reasons. She is 7 years old.

For those of you who have a fairly large herd of animals and have imported new additions from the sale barns in your area - do you KNOW you could trace each of those animals back to their place of birth and prove their birthdate?

Here we simply have another example of the VALUE of a mandatory ID plan. But there will be many who continue to oppose for various reasons - cost and privacy being two.

So solve the problem and get on with it. Someday it might actually save the industry - or even a whole bunch of lives.

Off my stump now,

Bez!

Well said.....think if this were a contagious disease like FMD instead of BSE. What would the value of a traceability system be.....or the implications of not being able to trace?????

 

[Oldtimer]

I just read in the local paper that the AL investigation trail ended at the aution house that sold the BSE infected cow to the current owner about a year ago.

I find that hard to understand - how could a sale barn not have records of who sold a cow about a year ago?

Just wondering if those with much more experience with cattle sales could shed some light on this unfortunate turn of events.

If she had been sold in a brand inspection state there would be a record- no matter how many years ago....A federal mandated Mandatory ID will end up being shoved down everyones throat mainly because some were too lazy or cheap to set up their own ID and inspection system....And like everything else the Federal government touchs it will cost us an arm and a leg........

 

[Bez!]

I just read in the local paper that the AL investigation trail ended at the aution house that sold the BSE infected cow to the current owner about a year ago.

I find that hard to understand - how could a sale barn not have records of who sold a cow about a year ago?

Just wondering if those with much more experience with cattle sales could shed some light on this unfortunate turn of events.

If she had been sold in a brand inspection state there would be a record- no matter how many years ago....A federal mandated Mandatory ID will end up being shoved down everyones throat mainly because some were too lazy or cheap to set up their own ID and inspection system....And like everything else the Federal government touchs it will cost us an arm and a leg........

Here is where you and I disagree.

Your comments about "if she had been sold ....." have no real bearing.

Reason?

Even in states where there are brands - as in Canada - cattle are sold every day without having a brand inspected. Or for that matter - even having a brand. Your system would work in a perfect world but the world is not perfect.

Cost? A disease that - unamed - wreaks havoc on the industry? Is there a cost? I believe you will find it necessary to produce a system that works before you capture the markets you once held. Until you do your industry will continue to lose ground to foreign competition.

I am not pro government although you might believe it. I am pro ID - if only because I live in that system and it works. Does it have flaws? Yes.

But it certainly is better than what you have now.

There will likely be no opportunity to find the origin of this animal - because there is no trace back. Because there is no trace back YOUR system will continue to cause you problems in the future. It will also keep many foreign markets from returning to your doors.

At present that is something that actually does not have a true bearing on your industry, as you are able to consume all of the beef produced domestically. But what it will mean is a serious loss of employment in your country as those packers move to foreign countries in order to continue making profits that their shareholders demand.

You want those jobs - some low paying and some high paying to go to China, Canada, Brazil or Argentina - how about the Euro countries? That is what is happening through the short sighted reactions of those who refuse to see that ID must come to satisfy the countries and people you want to sell beef to. THEY DEMAND trace back.

It is your system - find a way to make it work. You put a man on the moon - surely you realize this MUST happen?

As the money paying client they will get it or go elsewhere.

Bez!

 

[Bluestem]

...... and not work. Thanks oldtimer. Thought I was the only one here who thought that way.

 

[Oldtimer]

Bez-- If you sell one in a Brand state (Montana, anyway) without a brand inspection you are violating the law...All changes of ownership and all cross county movement is recorded already- and has been for years.......

All cattle coming into a Montana sales yard are inspected for ownership and all cattle leaving a Montana salesyard are again inspected and is not allowed out until they have a brand clearance.....

I think this is also true of Wy, Id, ND, and several other states...

 

[Bez!]

Bez-- If you sell one in a Brand state (Montana, anyway) without a brand inspection you are violating the law...All changes of ownership and all cross county movement is recorded already- and has been for years.......

All cattle coming into a Montana sales yard are inspected for ownership and all cattle leaving a Montana salesyard are again inspected and is not allowed out until they have a brand clearance.....

I think this is also true of Wy, Id, ND, and several other states...

I will bet you a drink in the bar of your choice that cattle move from ranch to ranch without being branded under good neighbour sales on a regular basis.

I would also bet you know this happens.

Your system is flawed.

On top of that there are a heck of a lot of cattle in parts of your country that ARE NOT branded. How do you plan to control them?

I have owned and do own cattle with brands. I know the system does not work.

Until you fix it or re-build it you know my statements are correct - you know - perhaps grudgingly my comments on markets are sound.

Final question: How do you plan to make this work?

Bez!

 

[Bluestem]

You can keep your ID system and restrict the area I can sell my cattle. That would work for me. Not long ago we would try to find the cause of diseases. No money in that. So now we want a system to pin point blame. If we want to sell to other countries we test them. As simple as that. Sometimes I think the USDA is afraid of what they'll find. Sorry for the rant.

 

[Oldtimer]

Bez-- What do you plan on doing with the 10% normal retention rate loss on ID eartags? When you gather your cattle in the fall and have 5-10 missing eartags, how do you know which came from where or when without a brand? Do those cattle that lose an eartag just become unsellable?

Yes I know there are sometimes violations-- just like in any law- and really not many amongst the true cattlemen- mostly amongst the 20 acre 5 cow or 2 horse bunch that aren't aware of the law.... I also know a few ranchers that just got Notices to Appear in Justice Court because they got caught- not reallizing that the law pertains to unbranded bum baby calves too...Who would have made them put a tag in the calfs ear? You haven't come up with that perfect bull yet that blows in an ID tag at conception now have you? :lol:

Bez--When you figure out the perfect, uncounterfeitable, unviolatable, unalterable system you bring it to me...And I'll bet I can find someone that can find a way around it if there is a buck to be made..... Until then the only permanent unalterable ID system is the hot iron brand- its stood up to 100's of years of test.... Combined with the ranchers own ID tags and records it is the best existing system....

Bluestem- If we weren't importing beef from every country in the world we would not need an export market- and these foreign countries wouldn't be holding an ID anvil over our heads...Another instance of the US citizens losing their sovereignty and decision making to the trade agreements....The US population can consume everything we produce....

 

[Bez!]

Bez-- What do you plan on doing with the 10% normal retention rate loss on ID eartags? When you gather your cattle in the fall and have 5-10 missing eartags, how do you know which came from where or when without a brand? Do those cattle that lose an eartag just become unsellable?

Yes I know there are sometimes violations-- just like in any law- and really not many amongst the true cattlemen- mostly amongst the 20 acre 5 cow or 2 horse bunch that aren't aware of the law.... I also know a few ranchers that just got Notices to Appear in Justice Court because they got caught- not reallizing that the law pertains to unbranded bum baby calves too...Who would have made them put a tag in the calfs ear? You haven't come up with that perfect bull yet that blows in an ID tag at conception now have you? :lol:

Bez--When you figure out the perfect, uncounterfeitable, unviolatable, unalterable system you bring it to me...And I'll bet I can find someone that can find a way around it if there is a buck to be made..... Until then the only permanent unalterable ID system is the hot iron brand- its stood up to 100's of years of test.... Combined with the ranchers own ID tags and records it is the best existing system....

Bluestem- If we weren't importing beef from every country in the world we would not need an export market- and these foreign countries wouldn't be holding an ID anvil over our heads...Another instance of the US citizens losing their sovereignty and decision making to the trade agreements....The US population can consume everything we produce....

OT

I do not hold the "anvil" over your head. In fact I hold nothing over your head.

I also have always respected your sovereignty. There is no one outside your country that can control that issue - only from within can it be reduced or suspended. You put the folks into power and they respond to the voters - plain and simple.

You have in the past stated you want the foreign markets back. Are you now saying to forget them and stop importing to supply these same markets? If so I not only understand, but I respect that opinion. However there is a significant amount of money that used to go into your economy that will never return.

Some would say the packers reap the benefits - but what about the employees, the contractors and the tax base these funds provide? Are you prepared to surrender this? Not for you or I to say I suppose, but it will be felt.

I admitted the flaws in our system - but to date it is far better than what you have. In fact this animal proved it. In spades. Where did it come from and were there others you will never find?

Surely that matters to you and the producers in the U.S. of A.?

I would really like an answer to this one - does it matter to you?

How can you fix it if you do not go ID?

I have also asked you a question - after admitting the flaws - that you throw back at me. Unfair to divert. You know the brand will not work because there are far too many animals in your country that are not branded. I would hazard a guess that as many as 50% perhaps more. Are any of your dairy beef operations branding? They are huge in comparisom to some cattle operations. Does anyone in the eastern States brand anymore?

In the end, there will be an ID system set up in your country. It will come before I am planted - unless someone or some thing puts me there before my time. It is simply a matter of finding a way.

Or it is a matter of closing your borders to anything in or anything out. And I do not believe that would serve the U.S. of A. in a positive manner.

You will have it and therefore it is imperative that you start it out on the right foot. To fight the inevitable is to have to dictated to you. Far better to have a hand in the design.

Back to you and any others who want to chew on me.

I am in the middle of doing taxes so I do not mind the interuptions. :lol:

Bez!

 

[Bez!]

You can keep your ID system and restrict the area I can sell my cattle. That would work for me. Not long ago we would try to find the cause of diseases. No money in that. So now we want a system to pin point blame. If we want to sell to other countries we test them. As simple as that. Sometimes I think the USDA is afraid of what they'll find. Sorry for the rant.

Well it is a good idea at first blush. But what happens to them after you have sold them? Where do they go?

I do not see blame being spread upon those who first had occurences in Canada. Will it come?

I do not know. But if someone is deliberately breaking the various rules in place are you prepared to allow it to continue? Or would you like to see it stopped?

As for ranting - I do not see it as a rant - I see it as someone who is concerned about the future of their operation and / or the future of the industry.

Should the USDA be concerned about what is happening in the industry? Should you be concerned? Are you afraid of what they will find?

I know I am always concerned about what happens here - now more than ever.

Valid concerns in my opinion.

Bez!

 

[Bez!]

...... and not work. Thanks oldtimer. Thought I was the only one here who thought that way.

I thoughtthat way before it came to Canada - now I have changed my opinion. I believe in it. Because I have seen it in action and it works - not perfectly - but it does work.

Bez!

 

[Oldtimer]

...... and not work. Thanks oldtimer. Thought I was the only one here who thought that way.

I thoughtthat way before it came to Canada - now I have changed my opinion. I believe in it. Because I have seen it in action and it works - not perfectly - but it does work.

Bez!

But Bez you guys in Canada don't actually have a traceback system- just a tag that tells you who was the last to put a tag in..

If the Alabama cow had a tag like the Canadian system in it- it would only tell you where it was tagged last- it could have been sold 7 times in 10 years and lost and had replaced 3 or 4 tags....It will cost you (or knowing Canada, the government) millions $ to get a true traceback system similar to the proposal under the US NAIS system...No one yet has shown if the economical gain will be enough to override the economical cost- especially to the US producer that has been told that they will have to fund the entire program.....

At least under our Montana system- if I buy a cow with the previous owners brand ( which all the boughten heifers, cows and bulls I have ever owned have had ) I either have to rebrand it or keep the change of ownership brand inspection or I can't sell it again.....

 

[Bez!]

...... and not work. Thanks oldtimer. Thought I was the only one here who thought that way.

I thoughtthat way before it came to Canada - now I have changed my opinion. I believe in it. Because I have seen it in action and it works - not perfectly - but it does work.

Bez!

But Bez you guys in Canada don't actually have a traceback system- just a tag that tells you who was the last to put a tag in..

If the Alabama cow had a tag like the Canadian system in it- it would only tell you where it was tagged last- it could have been sold 7 times in 10 years and lost and had replaced 3 or 4 tags....It will cost you (or knowing Canada, the government) millions $ to get a true traceback system similar to the proposal under the US NAIS system...No one yet has shown if the economical gain will be enough to override the economical cost- especially to the US producer that has been told that they will have to fund the entire program.....

At least under our Montana system- if I buy a cow with the previous owners brand ( which all the boughten heifers, cows and bulls I have ever owned have had ) I either have to rebrand it or keep the change of ownership brand inspection or I can't sell it again.....

Sorry you do not want to discuss this.

I have asked some questions and asked you for your opinions / answers - openly and honestly.

You do not appear to be willing to go forward despite my admitting OUR system has flaws.

I notice you have not mentioned that despite the flaws it did work for us when we needed it to. You simply want to keep pointing the flaws out. Flaws that we as cattlemen are attempting to eliminate.

Shows me you are dodging the questions. Questions I asked respectfully and not in an adversarial manner.

Someday - perhaps someday, you will be willing to actually not only answer the questions I asked, but even offer some ideas on how to make it work for you.

Until then - the case for this cow is dead - where are the remaining animals that might be infected? In the food chain?

Again I will ask - does this not concern you?

I have asked several other questions you refuse to answer - questions that were not asked in order to put your cattle operations in the U.S. of A. in a bad light.

Questions that need to be addressed in order to regain the confidence of the world markets you once had and until a short time ago you were adamant about regaining.

Avoiding this is similar to hoping the sun will not rise in the east tomorrow.

ID must be addressed by good people or it will be imposed. I have a feeling that it will come to that if your responses are typical.

Regards,

Bez!

 

[Oldtimer]

...... and not work. Thanks oldtimer. Thought I was the only one here who thought that way.

I thoughtthat way before it came to Canada - now I have changed my opinion. I believe in it. Because I have seen it in action and it works - not perfectly - but it does work.

Bez!

But Bez you guys in Canada don't actually have a traceback system- just a tag that tells you who was the last to put a tag in..

If the Alabama cow had a tag like the Canadian system in it- it would only tell you where it was tagged last- it could have been sold 7 times in 10 years and lost and had replaced 3 or 4 tags....It will cost you (or knowing Canada, the government) millions $ to get a true traceback system similar to the proposal under the US NAIS system...No one yet has shown if the economical gain will be enough to override the economical cost- especially to the US producer that has been told that they will have to fund the entire program.....

At least under our Montana system- if I buy a cow with the previous owners brand ( which all the boughten heifers, cows and bulls I have ever owned have had ) I either have to rebrand it or keep the change of ownership brand inspection or I can't sell it again.....

Sorry you do not want to discuss this.

I have asked some questions and asked you for your opinions / answers - openly and honestly.

You do not appear to be willing to go forward despite my admitting OUR system has flaws.

I notice you have not mentioned that despite the flaws it did work for us when we needed it to. You simply want to keep pointing the flaws out. Flaws that we as cattlemen are attempting to eliminate.

Shows me you are dodging the questions. Questions I asked respectfully and not in an adversarial manner.

Someday - perhaps someday, you will be willing to actually not only answer the questions I asked, but even offer some ideas on how to make it work for you.

Until then - the case for this cow is dead - where are the remaining animals that might be infected? In the food chain?

Again I will ask - does this not concern you?

Bez- What good does finding where this cow came from or the herdmates went to with BSE? Just like in Canada- it would probably only show that the majority have already been slaughtered and possibly entered the food chains...If this cow had been born post feed ban like the Canadian cows I would agree that the traceback would be more important in order to find the infected feed source and violators...With this cow it means nothing- except the Japs can use it as another flag to wave...

An eartag won't stop BSE spread? It won't stop more cattle or possibly humans from being infected...For that we need strong slaughter, feedban, and import restrictions that we don't drop for every lobbying group or Corporate entity that comes along......

An eartag will not stop FMD or the spread of it...Even the USDA vets admit that FMD spreads too fast to use an ID system...If its found in the US a large circle will be drawn around the site and quarantined- probably encompassing the state found and all neighboring states...

Bez- as my original post states- I think the US will end up getting a M-ID system...Its just sad that the states that have had a system for years have to suffer the expense and hardship because of the lazy non action states...And I haven't been shown yet where the proposed system is worth the eventual cost- not only economically, but in loss of rights and freedoms to the federal and corporate systems..

One positive to the mandatory ID- It will drop one of the M-COOL opponents major arguments...Not only will imported beef and cattle be IDed- all will be...We'll see then what trick the Packers/NCBA pull out of there hat to continue this fraud they perpetuate on US consumers...

I have asked several other questions you refuse to answer - questions that were not asked in order to put your cattle operations in the U.S. of A. in a bad light.

Questions that need to be addressed in order to regain the confidence of the world markets you once had and until a short time ago you were adamant about regaining.

Avoiding this is similar to hoping the sun will not rise in the east tomorrow.

ID must be addressed by good people or it will be imposed. I have a feeling that it will come to that if your responses are typical.

Regards,

Bez!

Bez- Didn't mean to leave you feeling slighted- but I was a little busy last night...We were in the middle of a blizzard and I had to play nursemaid to the old cows and some new babies- Priorities...I hope this answers your question....

 

[frenchie]

Bez- What good does finding where this cow came from or the herdmates went to with BSE? ....

That sayes It all Bez...If its theirs R-Calf does,nt care ;-)

 

[cmjust0]

Anyone else notice that those on this forum who push the hardest for NAIS are *Canadians*?? Gee, wonder why that would be.... :roll:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.. If you're Canadian, you have *no right* to an opinion on NAIS -- and I mean that in the very most literal sense possible.. The US Constitution affords each individual US citizen the *right* to protest or support our own government as we see fit.... Last I checked, it makes no consideration for the selfish rantings of Canadians whose pocketbooks might be affected by the passage or blockage of certain US laws...

SO... The way I figure it, if you're a Canadian with a business interest in the US Beef industry, you've got three options: 1) Move here officially and have your say, or 2) Get rid of your interest in the US beef industry, or 3) Keep your trap shut and watch from the sidelines.

What's going on now, though, has got to stop.. I'm getting really sick and tired of hearing a bunch of foreigners tell me how I should want my government to operate. :roll:

 

[Bez!]

Anyone else notice that those on this forum who push the hardest for NAIS are *Canadians*?? Gee, wonder why that would be.... :roll:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.. If you're Canadian, you have *no right* to an opinion on NAIS -- and I mean that in the very most literal sense possible.. The US Constitution affords each individual US citizen the *right* to protest or support our own government as we see fit.... Last I checked, it makes no consideration for the selfish rantings of Canadians whose pocketbooks might be affected by the passage or blockage of certain US laws...

SO... The way I figure it, if you're a Canadian with a business interest in the US Beef industry, you've got three options: 1) Move here officially and have your say, or 2) Get rid of your interest in the US beef industry, or 3) Keep your trap shut and watch from the sidelines.

What's going on now, though, has got to stop.. I'm getting really sick and tired of hearing a bunch of foreigners tell me how I should want my government to operate. :roll:

I would like you to point out where I told you "what to do".

I also would ask you this question - Does it concern you where the animal progeny ended up? Does it concern you that no one knows where this cow came from? Does it concern you that it cannot be traced?

I think I also stated that "good people need to address this issue" or I fear it will be imposed upon you.

Does that mean on an open and international board I cannot discuss this issue? Or are you afraid of what YOU might discover when you look for answers?

Does this cause you to believe I am interfering in your rights?

How?

In fact I believe I also stated I hold no anvil over anyones head.

Therefore - if you are prepared to hide your head in the sand, you will have this imposed - by YOUR own elected government.

If you are frightened that there are people out there who have knowledge and capability and a willingness to get involved - but are not citizens - then you are part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Remember, there is a fiscal loss or gain to your community - to close all the doors and look only inward is not going to make this go away.

What ARE YOU DOING to make this situation better - other than complaining to your buddies over coffee?

Try to answer all the questions - and remember - sometimes you might have friends in places that you least expect.

In closing - Where have I attempted to take your "rights" away?

Thanks

Bez!

 

[mwj]

Anyone else notice that those on this forum who push the hardest for NAIS are *Canadians*?? Gee, wonder why that would be.... :roll:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.. If you're Canadian, you have *no right* to an opinion on NAIS -- and I mean that in the very most literal sense possible.. The US Constitution affords each individual US citizen the *right* to protest or support our own government as we see fit.... Last I checked, it makes no consideration for the selfish rantings of Canadians whose pocketbooks might be affected by the passage or blockage of certain US laws...

SO... The way I figure it, if you're a Canadian with a business interest in the US Beef industry, you've got three options: 1) Move here officially and have your say, or 2) Get rid of your interest in the US beef industry, or 3) Keep your trap shut and watch from the sidelines.

What's going on now, though, has got to stop.. I'm getting really sick and tired of hearing a bunch of foreigners tell me how I should want my government to operate. :roll:

Do you supose those Canadian producers have listned to a couple of Americans and American organasations tell them how to run THERE beef industry when bse was found????????? Do you ever think maybe we should be ASKING for there advice? Does Japan think there system is a big joke as OT thinks? You an OT go ahead and brand your cattle and convince the world that they are better but I will tag mine along with the majoraty and hope it works as good as the Canadian system and hopefully it will be better since we can LEARN from there mistakes. It is really sad when all people care to do is try to belittle the Canadian system when we as a country can not trace the Alabama cow back past the sale barn where she was sold a year ago. I do not want to stay with a system that works that way and I hope all the naysayers do not hinder the transition to something better!