Breeding Philosophy

[mnmtranching]

theres no such thing as a rich rancher.all of the big seedstock producers are deep in debt at one point or another.meaning you have to owe money to keep from paying taxes on all your profit.but heres my thinking on breeding cattle.breed the best cattle you can weather it be reg or comm cows or crossbreds.follow your own path.dont be a tend or a breed jumper.get the bloodlines an the cattle that you can afford an want.if you produce seedstock keep the top bulls to raise.sell the very best you have at breed assoc sales.never sell junk in any replacement sales.the junk goes to the sale barn.an to the feedlots.

I'm not talking about seedstock producers, or me

They may not care or ever cash in. I know of a few ranchers that are worth many millions of $.

 

[Brandonm2]

Wishful thinking, but I would hope somebody who came seeking to buy one of my animals for a price like that would be an educated, informed individual who had done their research upfront.... ;-) A purchase like that would also help adverize your operation to other breeders so a relationship with the breeder would still be important.

Indeed, planning on something like that ever occurring would be wishful thinking; BUT it does happen to SOME people. Even if the buyer was NOT the most informed cattleman on the planet, an honest seedstock breeder would still show him THE best cow he had and represent it as such and recommend an embryologist, veterinarian, manager, or nutritionist as/if needed. Why pawn a $1500 cow on somebody as 'the best in the breed' when you actually HAVE the best in the breed and will benefit from the publicity/word of mouth from the sale??

 

[Brandonm2]

theres no such thing as a rich rancher.all of the big seedstock producers are deep in debt at one point or another.meaning you have to owe money to keep from paying taxes on all your profit.but heres my thinking on breeding cattle.breed the best cattle you can weather it be reg or comm cows or crossbreds.follow your own path.dont be a tend or a breed jumper.get the bloodlines an the cattle that you can afford an want.if you produce seedstock keep the top bulls to raise.sell the very best you have at breed assoc sales.never sell junk in any replacement sales.the junk goes to the sale barn.an to the feedlots.

I'm not talking about seedstock producers, or me

They may not care or ever cash in. I know of a few ranchers that are worth many millions of $.

Exactly, I know of several very wealthy men who also own ranches as part of a broad spectrum investment strategy and many of them take their cattle VERY seriously.

 

[1848]

Indeed, planning on something like that ever occurring would be wishful thinking; BUT it does happen to SOME people. Even if the buyer was NOT the most informed cattleman on the planet, an honest seedstock breeder would still show him THE best cow he had and represent it as such and recommend an embryologist, veterinarian, manager, or nutritionist as/if needed. Why pawn a $1500 cow on somebody as 'the best in the breed' when you actually HAVE the best in the breed and will benefit from the publicity/word of mouth from the sale??

Your grabbing at straws here. Why would anyone in their right mind who has allot of money go to joe schmo breeder and think, by his own assumption, that he is buying a cow worth 80,000? Were not talking about THG here... :lol: Ok...so Im just guuna go to a local breeder and arbitrailly place a value on your animal, and you are going to take it knowing your animal is not worth 2,000? Give me a break! Now if I had a well known breeder come to me, or a buyer with a sales rep to assist him....I might just assume they know what they are doing and realize the value of one of my animals....otherwise I'm not out to take a fool for his money.

 

[1848]

I know of several very wealthy men who also own ranches as part of a broad spectrum investment strategy and many of them take their cattle VERY seriously.

:shock: :shock:


oh oh oh! I know two...I know two! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[LFF]

I'm going to comment on some of the opinions of others and try to restate my befief and direction.

My philosophy is relatively simple. I think it is important to provide my customers a quality product which is based and developed on sound breeding and management practices.
END OF QUOTE

This philosophy, to me is a must for my operation. If I sell registered seedstock I want them to know everything about the animal that I can provide including the bad with the good. I'm still very new to the registered business, but my purchases have for the most part been from farms that make a living from farming and have proven credibility.


QOUTE
I'm seeing the same thing in EPDs. Breeders making mating decisions strictly on numbers with little regard to phenotype or whether those numbers have any PROVEN value.
END OF QOUTE
This is correct , however I also see too many breeders making decisions strictly on phenotype instead of carcass value. Also they don't use the profit indexes from the Hereford Assocation which really puts together the EPD's in a total package making it easier for people to correctly purchase the proper cattle for their operation. Too many people just chase a select or single Epd's and that can lead to some very poor breeding decissions.

QOUTE
I believe it is the responsibility of every seed-stock producer to improve their breed of choice, using all the tools at their disposal to accomplish this. Regardless of the size of their operation. Regardless of how small their improvement might be.
END OF QOUTE
I do to, however I have not ultrasounded any calves to date and I must make it a priority for my operation to advance in the direction I've chosen. My breeding and purchasing decisions has strongly been influenced by the scan data of other producers.

QOUTE
My "philosophy" for cattle production is based on the desire to create the best product possible, with the resources available to me, in a profitable way.

For me that means working with a breed of cattle that is adapted to my conditions and management style
END OF QOUTE
Absolutely, I continue to learn more about how to accomplish that goal everyday.


QOUTE
I agree with you if we are talking about $3000, but I once had a long conversation with Mr Hudson (deceased) of Arkansas and his high points were those times he sold $80,000, $90,000, $100,000 cows. I kind of see it Mr Hudson's way.....if some dude comes out to visit my cows and I tell him THAT donor is essential to my donor program, she is not for sale.......and he says I will pay you $80,000 for her. I would do the same thing and cash the $80g check. If the guy comes back to buy another cow.........great. If not, I can live with that too.
END OF QOUTE
Haven't had that oppertunity, however if I tell someone that cow is not for sale and they offered me that kind of money, they would probally own her or at least own a majority of her. Someone offering that amount of money has a plan that probally will enable them to make money, even with paying a high purchase price. Properly marketing a top quality cows or bulls prodegy, semen, or embro's can make a very large sum of money.


I am going to copy a former post by myself that will also help to explain my beliefs and operation. I don't know how much value it will have for this post. It does not say much about show cattle , however they usally are purchased from stock breed from one style.


Within the Hereford breed there are two prominent directions persued by seed stock producers. Both focus on maternal qualities but have different visions for the breed. I'm going to refer to the groups as traditional and contemporary.

Traditionalist produce cattle that look and perform well. They focus on volume, depth, width, disposition, milk, udders, muscle, and performance in their environment. The eye appeal of these cattle is certainly what producers like to see. Star Lake is one top producer of cattle in this category. If the future of Herefords is to continue in this direction I expect to see Herefords becoming more similar to continental cattle.

Contemporary breeders also focus on the same qualities as
traditionalist but places higher emphasis on marbling and IMF
epd's. They are willing to give up some amount of the other
qualities, mainly rib eye size to achieve marbling. It was asked
in another post "why such empasis on IMF". I will try to answer
it from a contemporary Hereford breeders view.

In past years Herefords were the preferred breed for cattle
producers in the US. Currently Angus has far surpassed
Herefords for obvious reasons which caused breeders to ask
what they needed to do to regain shares of the market.
The Association suggested "lower your birth weight and increase calving ease, improve milking ability and udder quality, increase muscling and marbling". Today the Association is still saying the same with the exception of muscling. Muscling is now acceptable at current average levels but marbling on the average has not improved near enough.


Profit indexes were created using economic data available
from many sources to help producers maximize production.
Accountants were hired to analyze prices paid for carcasses
of Hereford and Angus and to place a value on quality of cuts.
It became obvious why feed lots wanted Angus influenced
calves instead of Hereford. Pound for pound Angus carcass
had more marbling and consumers paid more for their meat.
There is more information on marbling however what I've
covered should help explain why so much emphasis is placed
on the IMF EDP's by contemporary breeders.

In closing Star Lake seems to recently joined the contemporary
breeders by purchasing Doug Gerber's herd. Doug uses high
marbling sires and I expect to see Star Lake use many of them in their program. It is my belief that the Hereford breed will
improve marbling and continue marketing cattle that are
maternal. If so marbling must be increased or Angus will be
the only logical choice for breeders wanting to maximize
profit while maintaining a British breed.


I have not got the multiple qoute feature figured out yet, sorry.

LFF

 

[Brandonm2]

Indeed, planning on something like that ever occurring would be wishful thinking; BUT it does happen to SOME people. Even if the buyer was NOT the most informed cattleman on the planet, an honest seedstock breeder would still show him THE best cow he had and represent it as such and recommend an embryologist, veterinarian, manager, or nutritionist as/if needed. Why pawn a $1500 cow on somebody as 'the best in the breed' when you actually HAVE the best in the breed and will benefit from the publicity/word of mouth from the sale??

Your grabbing at straws here. Why would anyone in their right mind who has allot of money go to joe schmo breeder and think, by his own assumption, that he is buying a cow worth 80,000? Were not talking about THG here... :lol: Ok...so Im just guuna go to a local breeder and arbitrailly place a value on your animal, and you are going to take it knowing your animal is not worth 2,000? Give me a break! Now if I had a well known breeder come to me, or a buyer with a sales rep to assist him....I might just assume they know what they are doing and realize the value of one of my animals....otherwise I'm not out to take a fool for his money.

First of all, this was NOT a Joe Schmo breeder so people coming to him to look for herd sires or donor cows was not unusual. IF the cow is the top donor in your program, one would hope that she was worth more than $2000.

 

[1848]

First of all, this was NOT a Joe Schmo breeder so people coming to him to look for herd sires or donor cows was not unusual. IF the cow is the top donor in your program, one would hope that she was worth more than $2000.

You missed my point ............Happy Thanksgiving

 

[TxStateCowboy]

My philosophy on raising cattle is to produce hard-working, tough, long-lasting longhorn cattle for the South Texas/desert cattleman. I focus on the traits that gave longhorns their adaptability and hardiness...


I won't sell a very old (17+) cow because she's a little slow in producing this year. I want the chance of her calving a heifer that will continue her long-life genetics. (Plus I want her horns when she croaks)

 

[THG]

Herefordsire, I think the best thing for you to do next Fall is buy a great 24H daughter and hope that donor is better than her on dam, 24H. I think that is the best thing you can do right now to influence that 24H into your program. Another thing, if your trying to influence 24H so much into your cowherd, why are you using bulls such as 745, 517, and 3008? Why not use bulls such as Olympian, Pounder, Route 66, or Lion King and then flush those bulls to a 24H daughter? That if way, you could line breed 24H and not pay to get 24H, because you probably will never get the chance to own her or even get a flush out of her. The last flush sold out of 24H was in the 2006 Falle Female sale at it went to Scott Parimeter of CA for $14,000. So good luck with your endeavors on influencing the top performing cow into your cowherd.

THG

 

[novatech]

LFF; I understand your goal to be, improvement of beef quality.
It seems to me that each breeder needs to pick a direction or try for a happy medium. All the research I have done points to the fact that if cattle are well marbled they are not feed efficient. Granted that higher quality beef will bring a premium but they are also more expensive to raise. If you have any information contrary to this please give a site that supports it as I am interested.
Further education is also part of my philosophy.

 

[HerefordSire]

You obviously did get it. Please allow me to elaborate. The difference in the $140K and the less than $20K transacted son which is linebred greater than 25% Catalina 24H genes, is $120K in intellectual profit according to the market. Do you understand now?

I'll use Remitall because its 24H's home. They have around !000 head. They have approx. 2 sales a year of about 25 head each that average $5000 to $7000 they sell the other 950 [ give or take a few replacements and a few private treaty sales] at market prices. Its not about the money, its about the cattle.

I don't think anyone is in the cattle business to make money. Do you know of anyone? I believe before anyone enters any business, they have to love it with all their heart. Secondly, all the other fundamental aspects of running any business are what is mostly being mentioned in this thread....honesty, integrity, credibility, not charging more than what an animal is worth, being able to sleep at night knowing you did the right thing during each day....this is first grade stuff, although many business men and women do have a tendency to leave these character traits out of their equations because of the biblical curse of the ground.

 

[novatech]

I believe before anyone enters any business, they have to love it with all their heart.

I cannot count the number of businesses I have been in. The ones that made money I loved. The ones that didn,t
Going into something you love in order to support your family and failing is a surefire way to learn to hate it.

I don't think anyone is in the cattle business to make money. Do you know of anyone?

Many

 

[Miss Daisy]

I won't sell a very old (17+) cow because she's a little slow in producing this year. I want the chance of her calving a heifer that will continue her long-life genetics. (Plus I want her horns when she croaks)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :cboy:

 

[HerefordSire]

You obviously did get it. Please allow me to elaborate. The difference in the $140K and the less than $20K transacted son which is linebred greater than 25% Catalina 24H genes, is $120K in intellectual profit according to the market. :cboy: Do you understand now?

So you don't have a breeding philosophy........only a plan on how to capitalize on what you "think" is a profitable strategy.

The following is your breeding philosophy, which you yourself interpreted by one dictionary as difficult to define:

My philosophy is relatively simple. I think it is important to provide my customers a quality product which is based and developed on sound breeding and management practices. I try not to chase popular, but lean towards more proven genetic lines, while trying to prove mine in the process. My goals are not much different then anyone else one this board with the exception that I am in no hurry to profit on the uneducated, uninformed, or trend influenced buyer. How about y'all?

(1) Do you think you could stay in business if you did not provide your customers with a quality product?

(2) Name one person still breeding cows that does not have sound breeding and management practices?

(3) Ahhh! You are an accuracy numbers guy! I always knwo you were! Glad to have a numbers by the book buddy, AT LAST! By the way, you try to not chase popular? Have you ever "led" popular?

(4) Are you writing it is OK to make profit on someone educated? Let me ask you another way....if your prized possession is in a top rated sale, you will prevent an uneducated buyer from owning your animal for sale (you will stop the sale)?

 

[THG]

You obviously did get it. Please allow me to elaborate. The difference in the $140K and the less than $20K transacted son which is linebred greater than 25% Catalina 24H genes, is $120K in intellectual profit according to the market. Do you understand now?

I'll use Remitall because its 24H's home. They have around !000 head. They have approx. 2 sales a year of about 25 head each that average $5000 to $7000 they sell the other 950 [ give or take a few replacements and a few private treaty sales] at market prices. Its not about the money, its about the cattle.

I don't think anyone is in the cattle business to make money. Do you know of anyone? I believe before anyone enters any business, they have to love it with all their heart. Secondly, all the other fundamental aspects of running any business are what is mostly being mentioned in this thread....honesty, integrity, credibility, not charging more than what an animal is worth, being able to sleep at night knowing you did the right thing during each day....this is first grade stuff, although many business men and women do have a tendency to leave these character traits out of their equations because of the biblical curse of the ground.

Herefordsire, some people are in the cattle business because they make a living by it and not just using cattle as a tax write off. I am looking at a good old cowboy from GA, Tommy Mead Jr. Mead Cattle Enterprises. Tommy, Robin, and Tommie Lynn Mead, all run Mead Cattle Enterprises, that is it, that is there main income every year to sell there offering. They don't work for nobody else in town or where, just on the farm. A Hereford breeder like my good friend William Adair, uses his cattle buying as a tax write off, but he is a good cowboy. I know of many hereford breeders that only breed herefords to write them off at the end of the year.

THG

 

[rocket2222]

I don't think anyone is in the cattle business to make money. Do you know of anyone? I believe before anyone enters any business, they have to love it with all their heart. Secondly, all the other fundamental aspects of running any business are what is mostly being mentioned in this thread....honesty, integrity, credibility, not charging more than what an animal is worth, being able to sleep at night knowing you did the right thing during each day....this is first grade stuff, although many business men and women do have a tendency to leave these character traits out of their equations because of the biblical curse of the ground.

I think we are all in it to make money, I know I am. I'd be lying if I said other wise.

 

[LFF]

All the research I have done points to the fact that if cattle are well marbled they are not feed efficient. Granted that higher quality beef will bring a premium but they are also more expensive to raise. If you have any information contrary to this please give a site that supports it as I am interested.
Further education is also part of my philosophy.

Novatech my information points to the fact that back fat and fleshing ability are key contributers to feed efficiency not marbling. Everyone should determine how they want to operate their farm and purchase cattle that will provide sufficent preformance for their enviroment. It may take me some time to find you a credible source , but I will look for it and copy it for you. Thanks for the question.

Project Number 00E-023-3 Prior Number
Status Completed
Project Title Effect of Sire Marbling EPD on Premium Required to Feed Steers for a Quality Market
Research Program External Competitive Grants Program
Principal Investigator Larry L. Berger
Department/College Animal Sciences
Institution University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Co-Investigator(s) (name, department/
college and institution) Dr, Paul M. Walker Agriculture Illinois State University
Total C-FAR Funding $70,900
Type of Research Multidisciplinary,Inter-Institutional
Funding Period Jul 01, 1999 -- Jun 30, 2001
C-FAR Research
Focus Area Agricultural Production Systems
Research Category Cattle
Purpose and Goals
Ninety-Six Simmental-Angus steers sired by bulls of known marbling Expected Progeny Difference (EPD) were early-weaned and individually fed high energy diets. This trial was replicated over two years with 48 steers per year. Steers were ultrasounded at 60-day intervals to estimate the rate of marbling deposition. Steers were harvested at a commercial packing plant at approximately 14 months of age weighing 1400 lbs. Carcass quality grades ranged from select to prime and averaged low choice. Progeny of sires with the lowest marbling EPD had the lowest USDA quality grades (low select) and those from the highest marbling EPD had the highest quality grades (average choice). Rate of gain decreased and the amount of feed required per unit of gain increased with length of time on feed. However, quality grade as estimated by ultrasound sound measurement had little effect on feed efficiency. Cost of gain was not highly correlated with quality grade showing that using sires with high marbling EPDs can improve carcass value without increasing the cost of production. These data show that Illinois beef producers who retain ownership of their cattle all the way to harvest can benefit by using sires with high marbling EPDs.
Outcomes and Impact
These data show that Illinois beef producers can improve the carcass merit of their cattle and obtain significant premiums when using high marbling EPD bulls. These data suggest that using high marbling EPD bulls does not affect cost of production compared to low marbling EPD with similar growth perfromance. Using a combination of early-weaning and high marbling EPD bulls provides Illinois beef producers with the potential to gain significant quality premiums without the discounts of yield grade four carcasses.
Beneficiaries The primary beneficiaries of this research are Illinois beef producers who retain ownership or who purchase feeder cattle from producers using bulls with high marbling EPDs.
Outreach
These data are being presented at regional beef meetings, in the Illinois Beef Magazine, at Field Days and through Feeder Day reports
Leveraged Funding
Related Websites
Initial Entry Date October 29, 2001
Information Updated October 29, 2001









--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home | What's New | Organization | Calendar of Events
News | Research | Related Links
1-800-232-7991 • (1-800-CFAR-991)
URL: http://www.ilcfar.org

 

[LFF]

novatech, here is another source

Current knowledge:. Extension work focused on explaining to commercial breeders how the NFI EBV can be used with EBVs for other commercially important traits to identify bulls that are superior for a number of desired characteristics (Exton 2003; Exton et al. 2004). For example, analysis of the Angus 2004 BREEDPLAN sire data shows that there exist popular bulls with favourable EBVs for NFI, subcutaneous fat and IMF%. Figure 3 shows a significant (P<0.05) but weak relationship (r2 = 0.1014) between EBVs for rib fat and EBV for NFI. Figure 3 also shows EBV for IMF versus EBV for NFI of the same Angus bulls. The relationship (r2 = 0.0002) between these traits was not significant. These EBV support the assertion that there is a genetic relationship between NFI and subcutaneous fat, but no clear relationship between NFI and IMF(research is continuing to clarify this latter point). Most importantly, the figures show that there are bulls available to Australian beef cattle breeders that are genetically superior for NFI and IMF( those in the upper left quadrant of graph 2 below) There are also bulls superior in NFI with either positive or negative subcutaneous fat EBVs(graph 1 below).

novatech
GURU



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 1387
Location: Brenham, Texas
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:54 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the response. This seems to verify what I have read. Leaner cattle tend to be more feed efficient.
I would like to see some results on Murry Greys.
Also I have read that some alleles are more important than others as far as their contribution to the trait.
I beleive that Genestar is now testing for a temprament gene. Bovigen is the US branch of Genestar.


As you said leaner cattle are more efficent.
Higher marbling cattle are not less effecient. Hope this helps.

 

[1848]

Also they don't use the profit indexes from the Hereford Assocation which really puts together the EPD's in a total package making it easier for people to correctly purchase the proper cattle for their operation.

Yes, the profit indexes can greatly assist someone in helping a commercial guy find what will best fit his program....assuming the EPD's are reasonable to high accuracy. The Carcass value traits can be highly heritable (IMF especially), so it is easier to get these traits embedded into the genetic make-up for commercial profitability too.

Too many people just chase a select or single Epd's and that can lead to some very poor breeding decissions.

Single trait can also work to an advantage in a line breeding program, where you already have many of the traits embeded, or where you know the bulls offspring meet the phentotype you already have, and you only need to concentrate on one or two traits.

I believe it is the responsibility of every seed-stock producer to improve their breed of choice, using all the tools at their disposal to accomplish this. Regardless of the size of their operation. Regardless of how small their improvement might be.

Absolutely

My "philosophy" for cattle production is based on the desire to create the best product possible, with the resources available to me, in a profitable way.

Smart.... ;-)

For me that means working with a breed of cattle that is adapted to my conditions and management style

Very practical approach....