Black Hereford

[Warren Allison]

A Black Hereford is a breed-up breed, not a composite breed. By that, we mean, instead of staying in a perpetual cross between a Hereford and an Angus, the idea behind the Black Hereford is to breed them up to 87.5% or greater Hereford blood to create a pure-bred Black Hereford. They are as much Hereford as a black Simmental is a Simmental. Black Limousins, Gelbeivs, etc.

 

[Brute 23]

All I can say is... . I don't have time right now.

 

[Rafter S]

They are as much Hereford as a black Simmental is a Simmental. Black Limousins, Gelbeivs, etc.

That statement is correct.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

View attachment 58898
A Black Hereford is a breed-up breed, not a composite breed. By that, we mean, instead of staying in a perpetual cross between a Hereford and an Angus, the idea behind the Black Hereford is to breed them up to 87.5% or greater Hereford blood to create a pure-bred Black Hereford. They are as much Hereford as a black Simmental is a Simmental. Black Limousins, Gelbeivs, etc.

@Warren Allison you are scaring me. Not because of what you are posting, but because I was thinking about this very scenario last night! Get out of my head!

In response to this, you have to realize that most (like 2/3) of the resulting crosses (the phenotypically black ones), at least early on, are going to be heterozygous black/red and are not going to consistently throw black offspring when bred to a red parent. When this happens, which will be better than half the time, half the offspring will be red and half the offspring will be black. Unless you are a breeder trying to accomplish this, the effort put into this by someone trying to produce black Herefords for market and wants to avoid red stocker cattle at all costs isn't worth it and will likely be disappointed. Now if you are just as happy with red offspring as you are black, then go ahead and try it, you might get lucky and beat the odds.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

View attachment 58898
A Black Hereford is a breed-up breed, not a composite breed. By that, we mean, instead of staying in a perpetual cross between a Hereford and an Angus, the idea behind the Black Hereford is to breed them up to 87.5% or greater Hereford blood to create a pure-bred Black Hereford. They are as much Hereford as a black Simmental is a Simmental. Black Limousins, Gelbeivs, etc.

Resulting animal will be pure bred black Herford. It will throw pure bred Herfords when bred to like animals, but those thrown offspring may not be BLACK Herfords.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I don't see where F1 Baldy bulls are not usable as a breeding tool. It seems to me that they could be used as readily as the F1 cows. When this F1 Baldy bull is bred to a 100% Herford (registered, red), all the offspring will be 75% Herford. Roughly half will be homozygous red and the other half will be heterozygous black. This cross moves the percent Herford forward, it just doesn't give rise to any potential true black breeding offspring. The same as the F1 in essence for color disposition.

 

[Warren Allison]

@Warren Allison you are scaring me. Not because of what you are posting, but because I was thinking about this very scenario last night! Get out of my head!

In response to this, you have to realize that most (like 2/3) of the resulting crosses (the phenotypically black ones), at least early on, are going to be heterozygous black/red and are not going to consistently throw black offspring when bred to a red parent. When this happens, which will be better than half the time, half the offspring will be red and half the offspring will be black. Unless you are a breeder trying to accomplish this, the effort put into this by someone trying to produce black Herefords for market and wants to avoid red stocker cattle at all costs isn't worth it and will likely be disappointed. Now if you are just as happy with red offspring as you are black, then go ahead and try it, you might get lucky and beat the odds.

If you read the history of the Black Hereford, it was developed to increase the odds of a black baldy, when people have hetero for black "Angus" bulls. A lot of people who have sale barn herefords and sale barn "black Angus" bulls, get a lot of red baldies. Today, after 35 years of developing these cattle, it is hard to find a registered black Hereford that is not homo for black.

 

[farmerjan]

They take as much of a dock here as an F1 black baldy with all the "hereford white" on the neck, legs etc.

 

[kenny thomas]

They take as much of a dock here as an F1 black baldy with all the "hereford white" on the neck, legs etc.

Same here. The extra white kills the price.

 

[Brute 23]

They take as much of a dock here as an F1 black baldy with all the "hereford white" on the neck, legs etc.

Exactly.

Putting those crossbred bulls on a Hereford cow is going to give you too much white.

Been there... done that... but I guess we can't compete with Google.

Bad


Good

 

[farmerjan]

Exactly.

Putting those crossbred bulls on a Hereford cow is going to give you too much white.

Been there... done that... but I guess we can't compete with Google.

Bad
View attachment 59230

Good
View attachment 59236

Exactly the same here... all that white hurts them... especially the feet and the underbelly.... and here you see alot with the neck feathering. BUT... the heifers make great cows to be crossed back with a black bull and it usually takes alot of the white off them and they look more like the ones in this second picture.
Still, at the prices we are getting today, the dock is not near as bad compared to how it hurt years ago when the prices were 1.50 lb for the ones they liked.
There is also a stockyard just north of here, that the colored up calves normally do much better... told my son that I would not be selling my char x calves here close but take them to the sale 1 hr north from now on. There are alot more "backyard farmers" up there, that raise some up for just beef, and there are alot of different buyers there that are not OBSESSED with "black cattle"... Also there are more dairies up there and the dairy cross calves do better there also. But to just make a special trip for 1 or 2 it is not really worth it.
I have a few more of these char x animals now, I really like the calves the 2 cows put on the ground and have kept a couple of their heifers so will have 4 or 5 to calve next year. Plus we look for the pink nose "pure" char heifers at sales, they get discounted a huge amount, but they do great bred black and the calves usually really grow like gangbusters. Got one that is in the breeding group now that was one of those $1.50 ones when all the rest of the heifers at a sale brought 2.50 .... 99% bred black will have a calf with a black/grey nose... even with that smokey grey color... sometimes we get some that are real dark. As long as they have a black/grey nose, they don't get hurt near as much.
Besides, I like looking at color....

 

[Ky hills]

If you read the history of the Black Hereford, it was developed to increase the odds of a black baldy, when people have hetero for black "Angus" bulls. A lot of people who have sale barn herefords and sale barn "black Angus" bulls, get a lot of red baldies. Today, after 35 years of developing these cattle, it is hard to find a registered black Hereford that is not homo for black.

It's apparently pretty common around here to find hetero "black Herefords"
Most that I have seen for sale are hetero.

 

[Ky hills]

@Brute 23 @farmerjan we too know from experience that those black calves marked like a Hereford with white neck, ears, legs and belly will get a major dock.
We've used a cross bred bull with only 1/4 Hereford in him the rest being Angus, when paired with Hereford or BWF cows the calves could come out with a lot of white.
I see some of the "black Hereford" bulls and immediately think nope not with our cows.
I've been saying too, that Herefords and the so called "black Herefords" don't really work with mixed herds especially when cows are Hereford or HerefordX.
We've had a calf with white legs and neck sorted from a group, and he had the same genetics as the others.
If a person has a cowherd that is atleast several generations Angus then a real red Hereford makes a good cross, and I don't see any point to a "black Hereford" for a herd like that.
Maybe in a herd of red Angus or heterozygous black, solid black cows a "black Hereford" that was homozygous black might be an option if the goal is black calves, but I believe if the goal is to maximize income from the calves a Hereford and even the "black Hereford" is fairly limited in the types of herds they can work in.
I believe there are other breeds that cross better with wider variety of cowherds.

 

[Rmc]

My problem with the registry of the black Hereford is the foundation bulls and how they were handled.
Early in the creation of the registry it was apparent that a high number of foundation animals carried the msud genetic defect.
Instead of removing all these animals from the registry and starting with better genetics they doubled down and keep the geneticly defective foundation animals as part of the registry.
A house built on a poor foundation will always have a bad foundation.
No matter how much lipstick the breed association puts on the msud foundation animals the registry will always be flawed because of its poor choice of foundation animals imho .
You can't make a silk purse out of a hogs ear !

 

[Warren Allison]

@Brute 23 @farmerjan we too know from experience that those black calves marked like a Hereford with white neck, ears, legs and belly will get a major dock.
We've used a cross bred bull with only 1/4 Hereford in him the rest being Angus, when paired with Hereford or BWF cows the calves could come out with a lot of white.
I see some of the "black Hereford" bulls and immediately think nope not with our cows.
I've been saying too, that Herefords and the so called "black Herefords" don't really work with mixed herds especially when cows are Hereford or HerefordX.
We've had a calf with white legs and neck sorted from a group, and he had the same genetics as the others.
If a person has a cowherd that is atleast several generations Angus then a real red Hereford makes a good cross, and I don't see any point to a "black Hereford" for a herd like that.
Maybe in a herd of red Angus or heterozygous black, solid black cows a "black Hereford" that was homozygous black might be an option if the goal is black calves, but I believe if the goal is to maximize income from the calves a Hereford and even the "black Hereford" is fairly limited in the types of herds they can work in.
I believe there are other breeds that cross better with wider variety of cowherds.

The most popular cross for decades has been black baldies..a Hereford Angus cross. A black Hereford cow, when bred to an "angus Bull. produces black baldies. No more white on them than a red hereford-Angus cross. They just have white faces. A lot of people who have Hereford cows, have a black bull that is heterozygous, and the end up with red baldie calves... that don't stand a chance of bringing the CAB premium. And there are people with "angus" cows, that breed them to Hereford bulls, Lot of these cows are hetero black, and the can end up having red baldies calves. But a homo for black Angus bull or cows, bred to homo for black Hereford bulls or cows, will yield a 100% black baldie calf. Any other situation where a Hereford cross is desired, for instance Braford, the black animal will bring more money than a red or brindled will.

 

[Ky hills]

The most popular cross for decades has been black baldies..a Hereford Angus cross. A black Hereford cow, when bred to an "angus Bull. produces black baldies. No more white on them than a red hereford-Angus cross. They just have white faces. A lot of people who have Hereford cows, have a black bull that is heterozygous, and the end up with red baldie calves... that don't stand a chance of bringing the CAB premium. And there are people with "angus" cows, that breed them to Hereford bulls, Lot of these cows are hetero black, and the can end up having red baldies calves. But a homo for black Angus bull or cows, bred to homo for black Hereford bulls or cows, will yield a 100% black baldie calf. Any other situation where a Hereford cross is desired, for instance Braford, the black animal will bring more money than a red or brindled will.

Not sure what you're trying to say there.
I am very familiar with Hereford X Angus BWF or baldies as you and others call them. A real Hereford ( red that is) bred to an Angus will have a BWF calf unless the very very rare circumstance of having a red carrier then there might be some red neck calves but with most all present day registered Angus there's not likely to be any red carriers, unless it's commercial cows that may have used other bulls.
Here's the thing, a real red Hereford x Angus calf is going to be BWF, and very conservatively marked. It will have a white face, maybe some black on the face, it's going to pretty much be solid black other than the face and maybe some white on the underside. And yes those are very popular calves and sell well.
Where I believe you're getting out into the weeds is in thinking that a "black Hereford" x traditional real red Hereford will result in a similar looking conservatively marked animal to a true F1 Hereford x Angus BWF.
It may sometimes, but as you have stated many times those " black Herefords" can be very high percentage Hereford. Herefords can have a lot of white on them. I know this because we have had many Herefords over the years and it is very often that you'll see white legs, white strip up the neck and sometimes running down along the back a ways too, white tops of ears, white down the neck on the underside and belly sometimes even a little ways up in the body will be white. That kind of range of white is not likely to always be covered up with a high percentage Hereford bull whether it's black or red.
I have had several true F1 BWF cows bred to a 75% Angus 25% Hereford bull also a BWF the resulting calves can be a range of anywhere from solid red or black to conservatively marked BWF to pure Hereford looking but with the black calves looking very Hereford like complete with a lot of white.
And that is calved that are higher percentage Angus than Hereford, so logic would dictate that a "black Hereford" would also have the potential to throw a lot of white on calves as well.

 

[Brute 23]

These back Herefords are a niche market. It's a novelty for any one who will bite. There are much better options in most all circumstances. The worse thing you can do is take "sale barn cows" or cows of mixed background and put a crossbred black hereford bull on them.

What is being missed here is these F1 baldies are so popular for the benefits that come with a first cross, F1. They are also a key ingredient of a 3 way cross.

When you just start breeding them back and forth with in each other you are losing that hybrid vigor and performance.

Using a black hereford to make baldies is like using urine to make lemonade.

 

[Warren Allison]

Not sure what you're trying to say there.
I am very familiar with Hereford X Angus BWF or baldies as you and others call them. A real Hereford ( red that is) bred to an Angus will have a BWF calf unless the very very rare circumstance of having a red carrier then there might be some red neck calves but with most all present day registered Angus there's not likely to be any red carriers, unless it's commercial cows that may have used other bulls.

Registered Angus, I agree. This is about people who use unregistered black bulls, or un registered black cows. If the hereford bull or cow is black, then there is a 75%-to 100% guarantee of a black calf.

Here's the thing, a real red Hereford x Angus calf is going to be BWF, and very conservatively marked. It will have a white face, maybe some black on the face, it's going to pretty much be solid black other than the face and maybe some white on the underside. And yes those are very popular calves and sell well.

So will a black Hereford x Angus. And black Herefords are real Herefords. Full bloods are 13/16ths Hereford, as much or more Hereford as a black Simm is a Simmental. or a black Limm is a Limousin, etc.

Where I believe you're getting out into the weeds is in thinking that a "black Hereford" x traditional real red Hereford will result in a similar looking conservatively marked animal to a true F1 Hereford x Angus BWF.

No I never said anything like that at all. A black Hereford x red Hereford will be marked the same as a red Hereford x red Hereford, but the calf has a 50% chance of being black, if the BH is hetero for black, and 100% chance if it is homo.

It may sometimes, but as you have stated many times those " black Herefords" can be very high percentage Hereford. Herefords can have a lot of white on them. I know this because we have had many Herefords over the years and it is very often that you'll see white legs, white strip up the neck and sometimes running down along the back a ways too, white tops of ears, white down the neck on the underside and belly sometimes even a little ways up in the body will be white. That kind of range of white is not likely to always be covered up with a high percentage Hereford bull whether it's black or red.
I have had several true F1 BWF cows bred to a 75% Angus 25% Hereford bull also a BWF the resulting calves can be a range of anywhere from solid red or black to conservatively marked BWF to pure Hereford looking but with the black calves looking very Hereford like complete with a lot of white.
And that is calved that are higher percentage Angus than Hereford, so logic would dictate that a "black Hereford" would also have the potential to throw a lot of white on calves as well.

 

[mwj]

You are misunderstanding his point. It is the ''chrome'' or amount of white that is the problem. Just the same as comparing a feather neck Hereford and a red baldy.

 

[Brute 23]

@Warren Allison

Spare us you theories and show us your results! Post some pics and show us how good it works.

Walk the walk...