Black Hereford

[Travlr]

62.5% Hereford and the rest Black Angus is a crossbred animal.

Gotta say that I miss the days when a registered animal wasn't a crossbreed and you could count on what you were getting. It kind of nullifies the argument that you're always better buying a registered bull than raising a crossbred bull for yourself.

 

[Ky hills]

Neither would I. Dunno where this black Herford on mixed up mutts comments from Brute and others came from. But, a BH bull will throw no more white on a calf than a red Herf would.

Lots of longhorns , not registered with the heritage association, have had Watusi blood mixed in throughout the years. Those are hard to poll.

Warren that is kind of the point I've been trying to make. A "black Hereford " will throw throw the same range amount of white as a traditional Hereford will, no more but certainly no less.

 

[Brute 23]

Gotta say that I miss the days when a registered animal wasn't a crossbreed and you could count on what you were getting. It kind of nullifies the argument that you're always better buying a registered bull than raising a crossbred bull for yourself.

They are taking advantage of people who don't know better.

If you want to buy a crossbred bull as part of your plan, go for it. Murry and some other use crossbred bulls or "bargain" type bulls as part of their program. They have a plan and are executing it for money or closed herds or genetics or what ever.

That's not the case with these balck herefords though. They are trying to charge like they are purebred animals and will bring all the benefits.

If some one new to the business walks up and asks why should I use a black hereford bull over my mixed up, commercial type cows, instead of a black Angus. It would be a flat out lie to suggest the BH would do any thing to help them over a BA. I'm outspoken about my dissatisfaction with the AAA but I'm not mathematicaly stupid.

There is not one scenario I can think of where a black Hereford would add any thing to any one's herd unless your business plan is selling to others who don't know better.

 

[Brute 23]

Warren that is kind of the point I've been trying to make. A "black Hereford " will throw throw the same range amount of white as a traditional Hereford will, no more but certainly no less.

Thats why they have lost their popularity in some sense except to make F1s.

Problem is, you can't make an F1 with a crossbred black hereford.

 

[Travlr]

They are taking advantage of people who don't know better.

If you want to buy a crossbred bull as part of your plan, go for it. Murry and some other use crossbred bulls or "bargain" type bulls as part of their program. They have a plan and are executing it for money or closed herds or genetics or what ever.

That's not the case with these balck herefords though. They are trying to charge like they are purebred animals and will bring all the benefits.

If some one new to the business walks up and asks why should I use a black hereford bull over my mixed up, commercial type cows, instead of a black Angus. It would be a flat out lie to suggest the BH would do any thing to help them over a BA. I'm outspoken about my dissatisfaction with the AAA but I'm not mathematicaly stupid.

There is not one scenario I can think of where a black Hereford would add any thing to any one's herd unless your business plan is selling to others who don't know better.

Much like "black" Charolaise... and really black anything crossed with Angus to qualify for CAB. Simmental and Limousin saw the writing on the wall early and jumped into making their animals black. Hereford is a little late.

 

[Brute 23]

Much like "black" Charolaise... and really black anything crossed with Angus to qualify for CAB. Simmental and Limousin saw the writing on the wall early and jumped into making their animals black. Hereford is a little late.

To my post above, the black Hereford people don't get it wasn't the red hurting the breed, it's the white.

You can run those black Limos and Chars and all that on cows and not bring the white out of the woodshed so you won't take the hit like the BH.

 

[Stonewall Joe]

As this subject is constantly bantered my question is, if you get more money due to the CAB premium, (whether you like it or not, it's a real fact in most of the country) and a homzygous back bull on virtually any cow will increase the likelyhood of a calf bringing that premium to nearly 100% in many cases, why does anyone purposely try to lower their odds for succes unless they just like color (my wife does) or they have a niche market where that color won't matter and then complain about the results? The input is nearly the same with any of them, I agree that some crosses will increase weight to the point where the difference is negated (but if the heavier calf was black he would bring more). We have a black simangus bull with a couple white splashes on his face. We have discovered that he is not homozygous, he has now produced 3 red calves over the past 2 years and a yellow one on a charlais cross cow but we have just decided our family will eat the red ones and sell the black ones for now, but with that being said, I believe we will change bulls soon. I was going to do it last winter but didn't because he is so easy to work around and for the biggest part his calves are too, so I can only blame the very occasional red calves and lower prices on myself and not the market.

 

[Brute 23]

As this subject is constantly bantered my question is, if you get more money due to the CAB premium, (whether you like it or not, it's a real fact in most of the country) and a homzygous back bull on virtually any cow will increase the likelyhood of a calf bringing that premium to nearly 100% in many cases, why does anyone purposely try to lower their odds for succes unless they just like color (my wife does) or they have a niche market where that color won't matter and then complain about the results? The input is nearly the same with any of them, I agree that some crosses will increase weight to the point where the difference is negated (but if the heavier calf was black he would bring more). We have a black simangus bull with a couple white splashes on his face. We have discovered that he is not homozygous, he has now produced 3 red calves over the past 2 years and a yellow one on a charlais cross cow but we have just decided our family will eat the red ones and sell the black ones for now, but with that being said, I believe we will change bulls soon. I was going to do it last winter but didn't because he is so easy to work around and for the biggest part his calves are too, so I can only blame the very occasional red calves and lower prices on myself and not the market.

I don't understand it either. Like your wife, my family will buy beefmester bulls all day long and lose money. It makes zero sense. They even bought a paint beefmaster probably 5 or so years back. Their problem is they are out of touch and don't stay up on the cattle market. I have put checks side by side with them enough now that they are starting to understand. I gave the guy that sold them that bull a pretty firm chewing as we have been buying from him for years and years. He is actually related to us. I told him you know what the plan is and you saw an opportunity to dump a bull on them and rook it know it would hurt them. This also happened the one time I didn't go. I figured the guy would sell them some thing like we always get and it bit me in the azz. I also made sure to tell him I have been selling every paint animal that has dropped since and that we went with a 1/4 blood black bull on the last go round. Next week I'm going to look at 2 deep red BM from another breeder and I will make sure he knows that too, after they are bought.

I'm setting them up with certain cows at certain places that will get balck bulls for terminal calves and other smaller places will have their nice, deep red, solid colored BM, to get BM bulls, to make replacements.

The only time I can justify using Hereford bulls is to make F1 Braford cows or 1/4 blood Brafords.

I think that happens to a lot of people though. Unless you are on a forum like this where people who have tried all this stuff will share candidly or you have some one close who you can put checks side by side with or can sit at the auction barn for hours and hours and make sense of what is going on its easy to be out of touch.

... and there is always a snake of a salesman out there trying to push some thing down your throat that is not in your best interest.

Buy good cows, run solid black bulls, sell calves, and avoid any one pushing a "breed" of cattle. It's that simple.

 

[Warren Allison]

Why is there no need? Are you saying there is no chance of a red calf from a registered angus? Wrong.

Very minute chance. There are a few AAA registered Angus that carry a red gene...heterazygous for black... and that IS marked on the registration papers.

 

[Warren Allison]

Warren that is kind of the point I've been trying to make. A "black Hereford " will throw throw the same range amount of white as a traditional Hereford will, no more but certainly no less.

Yeah, and I never argued that point. Pretty easy to find registered BH with minimal white, though. But, even if someone uses a BH bull or cow on a mongrel cow or bull, and gets a calf with too much white, that black calf will be worth more than a red one with too much white.

 

[Warren Allison]

As this subject is constantly bantered my question is, if you get more money due to the CAB premium, (whether you like it or not, it's a real fact in most of the country) and a homzygous back bull on virtually any cow will increase the likelyhood of a calf bringing that premium to nearly 100% in many cases, why does anyone purposely try to lower their odds for succes unless they just like color (my wife does) or they have a niche market where that color won't matter and then complain about the results? The input is nearly the same with any of them, I agree that some crosses will increase weight to the point where the difference is negated (but if the heavier calf was black he would bring more). We have a black simangus bull with a couple white splashes on his face. We have discovered that he is not homozygous, he has now produced 3 red calves over the past 2 years and a yellow one on a charlais cross cow but we have just decided our family will eat the red ones and sell the black ones for now, but with that being said, I believe we will change bulls soon. I was going to do it last winter but didn't because he is so easy to work around and for the biggest part his calves are too, so I can only blame the very occasional red calves and lower prices on myself and not the market.

Very well said. You get it!

 

[fnfarms1]

What's the "feather neck" everyone refers to? I understand it's the white on the neck, not part parakeet but not sure I know what feathering is

 

[bird dog]

I believe the Featherneck is the white on the sheath running from the brisket to the head. The ones that really receive the dock are the pink nose and eyed ones.

I have seen some pens of calves at OKC coming from pure angus herds using pure angus bull that will have a odd ball red calf with them. It matters not to that group. They look for quality calves of any color. The bull quality is more important than color.

 

[greybeard]

They look for quality calves of any color. The bull quality is more important than color.

True, so true but some will proclaim throughout the land that.....

"Oh such blasphemy from those that do not drink from the blackened well!"

 

[Brute 23]

Still waiting for some pics of the calves from these balck Hereford bulls and real world experience from some one.

 

[kenny thomas]

What's the "feather neck" everyone refers to? I understand it's the white on the neck, not part parakeet but not sure I know what feathering is

Here featherneck refers to the white on top of the neck from the head back to the shoulders. It even seems on some to look like short feathers standing up. Once this was common on Herfords in this area.

 

[Ky hills]

Yeah, and I never argued that point. Pretty easy to find registered BH with minimal white, though. But, even if someone uses a BH bull or cow on a mongrel cow or bull, and gets a calf with too much white, that black calf will be worth more than a red one with too much white.

I've been the one arguing the point about excessive white as a reason to not use Hereford genetics be it red or black in a mixed herd.
You might find a Hereford traditional or black type that is conservatively marked I agree with that. Some traditional Hereford breeders have been selecting for conservative marked cattle with eye pigment, even red rings around the eyes, red legs, neck etc. May even be some red Angus slipped into them too to achieve that. Reality is that even though that a very conservative marked animal looks the part the hidden genetics behind him can come back to the forefront and be revealed in some of his calves.
I raised a purebred Hereford bull from both registered Hereford sire and dam. That mother of that bull was very conservatively marked with just a white face, red neck, red legs very little white on her belly. The bull calf had more white but normal for a Hereford. I used him on my mongrel cows as you call them some Herefords some F1 Angus Hereford crosses ie BWF. The results were all over the spectrum some conservative marked calves and some with much more white than either parent.
Some years the same mating would yield conservative marked on year and a lot of chrome the next.
The same thing was true with the mongrel 75% black Angus 25% Hereford bull that for a fact was those percentages as all his ancestors were of registered stock of their respective breeds until his true F1 dam, his sire was registered Angus.
If that very conservative marked bull being high percentage Angus was throwing chromed up calves from his 25% Hereford out of BWF cows I know good and well that high percentage Herefords even though they are black they are still going to likely throw some chrome from certain cows.
I can say from real world experiences that even though those chromed up BWF calves have black hides, they get sorted off and sell like Hereford Holstein crosses which they are not but it's what they are perceived to be and thus they will not bring any more than a red one they are all about the same.
The conservative marked black or red necked calves will outsell them.

 

[Rmc]

Gotta say that I miss the days when a registered animal wasn't a crossbreed and you could count on what you were getting. It kind of nullifies the argument that you're always better buying a registered bull than raising a crossbred bull for yourself.

What day was that ?
Every breed in existence is the result of originating from Animals outside the registry ,
Some are just more willing to admit it .

 

[Warren Allison]

I've been the one arguing the point about excessive white as a reason to not use Hereford genetics be it red or black in a mixed herd.
You might find a Hereford traditional or black type that is conservatively marked I agree with that. Some traditional Hereford breeders have been selecting for conservative marked cattle with eye pigment, even red rings around the eyes, red legs, neck etc. May even be some red Angus slipped into them too to achieve that. Reality is that even though that a very conservative marked animal looks the part the hidden genetics behind him can come back to the forefront and be revealed in some of his calves.
I raised a purebred Hereford bull from both registered Hereford sire and dam. That mother of that bull was very conservatively marked with just a white face, red neck, red legs very little white on her belly. The bull calf had more white but normal for a Hereford. I used him on my mongrel cows as you call them some Herefords some F1 Angus Hereford crosses ie BWF. The results were all over the spectrum some conservative marked calves and some with much more white than either parent.
Some years the same mating would yield conservative marked on year and a lot of chrome the next.
The same thing was true with the mongrel 75% black Angus 25% Hereford bull that for a fact was those percentages as all his ancestors were of registered stock of their respective breeds until his true F1 dam, his sire was registered Angus.
If that very conservative marked bull being high percentage Angus was throwing chromed up calves from his 25% Hereford out of BWF cows I know good and well that high percentage Herefords even though they are black they are still going to likely throw some chrome from certain cows.
I can say from real world experiences that even though those chromed up BWF calves have black hides, they get sorted off and sell like Hereford Holstein crosses which they are not but it's what they are perceived to be and thus they will not bring any more than a red one they are all about the same.
The conservative marked black or red necked calves will outsell them.

As long as the white ( or any other color) isn't behind the shoulder, above the flanks, or breaking the midline, excluding the tail, then the white won't exclude them from CAB as long as the hide is 51% black.

 

[farmerjan]

Yeah, and I never argued that point. Pretty easy to find registered BH with minimal white, though. But, even if someone uses a BH bull or cow on a mongrel cow or bull, and gets a calf with too much white, that black calf will be worth more than a red one with too much white.

Sorry, a black calf out of either a black hereford, or a red hereford... with alot of white on them... will take a bigger hit here than a red white faced calf or a solid red calf with little to no white anywhere except on the face if they are of equal size, type, build etc... The white will hurt them way more than being solid red, or red with a white face but nothing on on legs, back, tail... And the dock for a grey char/angus cross will do alot better than the too much white black calf too.