Black Hereford

[Ky hills]

These back Herefords are a niche market. It's a novelty for any one who will bite. There are much better options in most all circumstances. The worse thing you can do is take "sale barn cows" or cows of mixed background and put a crossbred black hereford bull on them.

What is being missed here is these F1 baldies are so popular for the benefits that come with a first cross, F1. They are also a key ingredient of a 3 way cross.

When you just start breeding them back and forth with in each other you are losing that hybrid vigor and performance.

Using a black hereford to make baldies is like using urine to make lemonade.

Exactly, a mixed herd of cows with crossbred bull especially one with white on it is just making for a Christmas tree crop of calves and not the desired uniformity.
Yes that first F1 cross of Angus and Hereford is hard to beat and hard to replicate the benefits of an F1 unless you take it to a 3 way cross. F1 BWF cows bred to Charolais, Simmental, or Limousin.
To change it up to work better in the deep south, F1 Hereford X Brahman cows with and Angus bull.

 

[Brute 23]

... and not Google photos either

 

[Warren Allison]

These back Herefords are a niche market. It's a novelty for any one who will bite. There are much better options in most all circumstances. The worse thing you can do is take "sale barn cows" or cows of mixed background and put a crossbred black hereford bull on them.

What is being missed here is these F1 baldies are so popular for the benefits that come with a first cross, F1. They are also a key ingredient of a 3 way cross.

When you just start breeding them back and forth with in each other you are losing that hybrid vigor and performance.

Using a black hereford to make baldies is like using urine to make lemonade.

ROFLMFAO! Are @Jeanne - Simme Valley 's black Simms a "niche market"? Actually a black Hereford is a much better option than red Herford in all circumstances. Dunno anyone that is talking about taking "sale barn cows or cows of mixed background and put a crossbred black hereford bull on them". But, taking those "sale barn cows or cows of mixed background", and putting a purebred black Hereford bull on them, will yield you a more marketable calf than if you put a red Hereford bull on them.

You can take 20 registered black Angus cows, breed 10 to a registered red Hereford bull, and 10 to a registered black Hereford bull, and you will get 20 black baldies, and no one could tell which bull sired which calf. Take 10 registered red Hereford cows, and 10 registered black Hereford cows, and breed them to a registered black Angus bull, and you will get 20 black baldy calves and no one could tell which cow birthed which calf.

I have a neighbor that inherited a herd of red Angus cows from an uncle, and he is on his 2nd year of breeding them to a homo for black Herford bull. All of his calves are black baldies. He calls them reverse black baldies, And no one can tell them from a black angus/red hereford cross. Gert x Hereford is a very popular cross down here for replacement heifers. But unless they are AI'ed with sexed semen, you can end up with red steers that are not worth as much as black ones. Several people are using black Hereford bulls for this cross. Not only are the black heifers worth more than the red ones, but the steers will bring top dollar, too.

 

[Brute 23]

Exactly, a mixed herd of cows with crossbred bull especially one with white on it is just making for a Christmas tree crop of calves and not the desired uniformity.
Yes that first F1 cross of Angus and Hereford is hard to beat and hard to replicate the benefits of an F1 unless you take it to a 3 way cross. F1 BWF cows bred to Charolais, Simmental, or Limousin.
To change it up to work better in the deep south, F1 Hereford X Brahman cows with and Angus bull.

That is exactly how I do it. I'll even breed the 1/4 Bra, 1/4 Hereford, 1/2 BA back to another Black Angus. Some will carry the white face some won'tbut I am headed in the direction the market wants with the Angus. The pic I posted with the calf that has all the white is what happens if you take them back to red hereford, again. It's too much chrome. Some came out black like that, some came out red (Sound familiar ). I don't do that any more for a reason.

We did take a handful of 1/4 bloods heifers to a place last year. Some are baldies or spackled up and some are solid black. They got a little rented Brangus bull in April or May. I want to see if they can be bred back to make any thing we can use or market or if they just look like black Brahmans. It would be nice if the white face will carry to some.

 

[Warren Allison]

Exactly, a mixed herd of cows with crossbred bull especially one with white on it is just making for a Christmas tree crop of calves and not the desired uniformity.

I agree. Dunno how this morphed into a discussion of breeding mutt cows to mutt bulls, no matter what kind or color of bull. IMO, an unregistered bull or grade stallion should not be allowed to exist, much less breed. They should all be geldings and steers.

Yes that first F1 cross of Angus and Hereford is hard to beat and hard to replicate the benefits of an F1 unless you take it to a 3 way cross. F1 BWF cows bred to Charolais, Simmental, or Limousin.
To change it up to work better in the deep south, F1 Hereford X Brahman cows with and Angus bull.

Yep, and f1 Black Hereford x Brahma replacements out sell red or brindled by a substantial amount. That guy I bought up those 150 Brahmas for a few years ago, last year and this year he used all black Hereford bulls. When we first bought them as 2 yr olds, they were bred to Hereford, and 20 of them were bred to black Hereford. The red heifers brought $250 more than the brindled, and the blacks brought $500 more than the brindled as yearlings. And the black steers were $.50 or better over the red and brindled at weaning.

 

[kenny thomas]

The most popular cross for decades has been black baldies..a Hereford Angus cross. A black Hereford cow, when bred to an "angus Bull. produces black baldies. No more white on them than a red hereford-Angus cross. They just have white faces. A lot of people who have Hereford cows, have a black bull that is heterozygous, and the end up with red baldie calves... that don't stand a chance of bringing the CAB premium. And there are people with "angus" cows, that breed them to Hereford bulls, Lot of these cows are hetero black, and the can end up having red baldies calves. But a homo for black Angus bull or cows, bred to homo for black Hereford bulls or cows, will yield a 100% black baldie calf. Any other situation where a Hereford cross is desired, for instance Braford, the black animal will bring more money than a red or brindled will.

I have never ever seen a set of papers on an Angus bull or cow that said homozygous black. Has anyone else?
Never seen an Angus tested.
I tested a black bull of unknown breeding a couple months ago so yes it can be done. He came back homozygous black.

 

[Brute 23]

ROFLMFAO! Are @Jeanne - Simme Valley 's black Simms a "niche market"? Actually a black Hereford is a much better option than red Herford in all circumstances. Dunno anyone that is talking about taking "sale barn cows or cows of mixed background and put a crossbred black hereford bull on them". But, taking those "sale barn cows or cows of mixed background", and putting a purebred black Hereford bull on them, will yield you a more marketable calf than if you put a red Hereford bull on them.

You can take 20 registered black Angus cows, breed 10 to a registered red Hereford bull, and 10 to a registered black Hereford bull, and you will get 20 black baldies, and no one could tell which bull sired which calf. Take 10 registered red Hereford cows, and 10 registered black Hereford cows, and breed them to a registered black Angus bull, and you will get 20 black baldy calves and no one could tell which cow birthed which calf.

I have a neighbor that inherited a herd of red Angus cows from an uncle, and he is on his 2nd year of breeding them to a homo for black Herford bull. All of his calves are black baldies. He calls them reverse black baldies, And no one can tell them from a black angus/red hereford cross. Gert x Hereford is a very popular cross down here for replacement heifers. But unless they are AI'ed with sexed semen, you can end up with red steers that are not worth as much as black ones. Several people are using black Hereford bulls for this cross. Not only are the black heifers worth more than the red ones, but the steers will bring top dollar, too.

You are senile. Good luck to you.

 

[Brute 23]

I have Black Brafords for sale if any one is interested!

 

[Warren Allison]

I have never ever seen a set of papers on an Angus bull or cow that said homozygous black. Has anyone else?
Never seen an Angus tested.
I tested a black bull of unknown breeding a couple months ago so yes it can be done. He came back homozygous black.

There is no need to test AAA registered stock. Some associations in other countries register red and black Angus in the same registry so those could benefit from a test.

 

[kenny thomas]

There is no need to test AAA registered stock. Some associations in other countries register red and black Angus in the same registry so those could benefit from a test.

Why is there no need? Are you saying there is no chance of a red calf from a registered angus? Wrong.

 

[Ky hills]

I agree. Dunno how this morphed into a discussion of breeding mutt cows to mutt bulls, no matter what kind or color of bull. IMO, an unregistered bull or grade stallion should not be allowed to exist, much less breed. They should all be geldings and steers.

Yep, and f1 Black Hereford x Brahma replacements out sell red or brindled by a substantial amount. That guy I bought up those 150 Brahmas for a few years ago, last year and this year he used all black Hereford bulls. When we first bought them as 2 yr olds, they were bred to Hereford, and 20 of them were bred to black Hereford. The red heifers brought $250 more than the brindled, and the blacks brought $500 more than the brindled as yearlings. And the black steers were $.50 or better over the red and brindled at weaning.

I reckon the discussion veered into crossbreds when I was trying to make the point that I don't think Hereford tradional or black version are the best choice to use on a mixed herd.
On the subject of mutt bulls, I'm not going to buy one, but I have no problem using one in a pinch. Is it the best situation? Obviously not, but there is an unfortunate reality that a lot of registered bulls out there running around should have been steers too.
No shame in having mixed cows at all, it's just that in order to make the most out of them you need to have the right breed of bull and in my opinion that is going to be a solid colored black bull or a Charolais.

 

[farmerjan]

Many of us on here... and I would venture to say at least half of us... have mixed colors and parentage cows..... Since the first time I could afford it, I have always bought a REGISTERED bull to breed to the cows... and NO, @kenny thomas , I have never seen any papers that say homo for black on a registered angus bull... BUT I have bought a few Lim-Flex that will not be homo for black, and a black gelbvieh that is throwing some red calves. A purebred REGISTERED black angus is NOT ALLOWED to have any red angus in the pedigree... yet many reds are superior type animals.
We have found that a registered black angus on red hereford cows will throw different amounts of white on the calves... and NOT all calves will come black. We have a couple red hereford type cows that have been bred to the SAME registered angus bull a couple years in a row and have had the odd red calf one year. The black does NOT always mask the red from the cow... recessives will show through occasionally. Most all of them have much less neck feathering and no white on the feet or tail... some years some will have much more white on the necks and a white foot or a tail switch. Here, there is the prejudice also that there might be some dairy in the white footed and white tail switch... and it comes out bred to black angus generation after generation... I have a 4th gen "black heifer" with no discernible white... that just had a black calf with white on the tail and some on the underbelly..... the original cow was an angus holstein cross...and this new calf is from a registerd black angus bull as have been all the bulls used back in each generation....
@Warren Allison .....Taking our mixed lot of cows, I would not ever put a black hereford bull on them... the calves would NOT be as saleable as using a straight black angus... there will be too much white on many of the calves. Black baldies that make the grade here; only have with some white on the face... less is better... and if it is the typical white blaze like a simmental, they will get docked also.
I have to just say that I will never accept that "black herefords" are really herefords.... JUST ME.... herefords were a red and white breed... just like limousin were always a shade of reddish color... from light to dark, but always a red/tan.... We have a black reg limousin now... I don't think he is homo black... but his calves have always been black on our crayon box colors of cows.....

I just brought home 12 heifers out of a red hereford bull on holstein cows. There is 1 red/white in the bunch...rest are b/w.... and most look totally like a dairy cross.. we will see how they grow out and how many I may keep for replacements ..... and this farm has no red white holsteins as far back as anyone can remember... so the recessive gene had to be buried deep?????...
You don't always get what the "laws of genetics" says you will get.

My longhorn has had 6 calves so far... all the males have had horn buds that do not grow... not even a scur... just a hard spot on the head where there would be horns ... but there isn't anything except the flat hard spot... One is ready to go in the freezer this fall... 2 yrs 2 months right now... and the "horn spots" are the same as they were at 6 months old. All the heifers have not even had these hard spots on their heads... 3 different bulls have bred her... 1st 2 calves were from one bull, next 2 calves a different bull, last year and this bull calf is from a 3rd bull.... She will get bred by a 4th different bull this time... all registered angus... so by rights should not even have a semblence of horns right??? Yeah, I know... Longhorns and the brahma's and other african horned gene animals do not play by the rules...

 

[Brute 23]

No one should believe any thing from @Warren Allison for one minute. I call BS on all of it.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Little history.
Registered Black Angus cows have produced red calves from day 1. Back in the 70's, any PB BA breeder would take a red calf out behind the barn & knock it in the head. They didn't understand "where' it came from, but they didn't want to ruin their PB reputation.
Finally, someone got smart and decided to take those RED throw-aways and started the Red Angus Assn. They allowed red calves out of REGISTERED Black Angus to be registered in the Red Ang. Assn.
Still today, there are REGISTERED Black Angus cattle producing RED OFFSPRING. Rare, but happens. The dam and the sire BOTH have to carry the red gene, and BOTH have to pass it on to the one offspring.
AAA does not designate whether the animals are Homo or Hetero because it is ASSUMED they are all Homo Black. Mostly, they are. But there is always that hidden one in the woodpile.

In the Simmental breed, if you breed a WF or Blaze bull to a WF or Blaze cow, all he!! breaks out. You may get WAY more white than you want. There are hidden genes "attached" to the white on faces that take over somehow.

 

[farmerjan]

Little history.
Registered Black Angus cows have produced red calves from day 1. Back in the 70's, any PB BA breeder would take a red calf out behind the barn & knock it in the head. They didn't understand "where' it came from, but they didn't want to ruin their PB reputation.
Finally, someone got smart and decided to take those RED throw-aways and started the Red Angus Assn. They allowed red calves out of REGISTERED Black Angus to be registered in the Red Ang. Assn.
Still today, there are REGISTERED Black Angus cattle producing RED OFFSPRING. Rare, but happens. The dam and the sire BOTH have to carry the red gene, and BOTH have to pass it on to the one offspring.
AAA does not designate whether the animals are Homo or Hetero because it is ASSUMED they are all Homo Black. Mostly, they are. But there is always that hidden one in the woodpile.

In the Simmental breed, if you breed a WF or Blaze bull to a WF or Blaze cow, all he!! breaks out. You may get WAY more white than you want. There are hidden genes "attached" to the white on faces that take over somehow.

Same thing happened in the holstein breed. Red and white calves were quietly disposed of.... until someone decided to he// with it and started raising them. Holstein did not want them registered... and so the red and whites were not registered in the Holstein registry and they started their own... Red & White Assoc. Most were r/w heifers that were not registered, but could trace their lineage... they also accepted other r/w heifers.. so some may have had ayshire, or sweedish red or who knows what. The ones that had holstein lineage were issued R&W registration papers, the others got "ID" papers and you could "breed them up".... and now the holstein assoc has finally merged with the R&W assoc... some have "purebred papers, some have percentage papers... There are alot of very very good red and white's milking. Have one dairy that the red and whites actually average a few pounds more than their black and whites. They also have reg Brown Swiss and show alot... so not some backyard operation... they have quality cattle and the r&w have finally gotten their "just dues"....
Thanks @Jeanne - Simme Valley for the angus info. When we get a red calf on the odd occasion, and it has only been the REGISTERED black angus in there to breed... and I keep very extensive records of who goes where with what bull.... first thing we do is look to see who what where and when... possible neighbor bull going across the fence... all that... and sometimes it defy's explanation....

 

[GoWyo]

Little history.
Registered Black Angus cows have produced red calves from day 1. Back in the 70's, any PB BA breeder would take a red calf out behind the barn & knock it in the head. They didn't understand "where' it came from, but they didn't want to ruin their PB reputation.
Finally, someone got smart and decided to take those RED throw-aways and started the Red Angus Assn. They allowed red calves out of REGISTERED Black Angus to be registered in the Red Ang. Assn.
Still today, there are REGISTERED Black Angus cattle producing RED OFFSPRING. Rare, but happens. The dam and the sire BOTH have to carry the red gene, and BOTH have to pass it on to the one offspring.
AAA does not designate whether the animals are Homo or Hetero because it is ASSUMED they are all Homo Black. Mostly, they are. But there is always that hidden one in the woodpile.

In the Simmental breed, if you breed a WF or Blaze bull to a WF or Blaze cow, all he!! breaks out. You may get WAY more white than you want. There are hidden genes "attached" to the white on faces that take over somehow.

There are a few registered Angus cattle that are known red gene carriers, though that number is likely decreasing every generation. If you see "RDC" behind the name of an animal in the pedigree that is a known red carrier.

 

[Brute 23]

A Black Angus throwing a red calf doesn't bother me one bit... as long as it doesn't throw white.

 

[Warren Allison]

@Warren Allison .....Taking our mixed lot of cows, I would not ever put a black hereford bull on them... the calves would NOT be as saleable as using a straight black angus... there will be too much white on many of the calves.

Neither would I. Dunno where this black Herford on mixed up mutts comments from Brute and others came from. But, a BH bull will throw no more white on a calf than a red Herf would.

My longhorn has had 6 calves so far... all the males have had horn buds that do not grow... not even a scur... just a hard spot on the head where there would be horns ... but there isn't anything except the flat hard spot... One is ready to go in the freezer this fall... 2 yrs 2 months right now... and the "horn spots" are the same as they were at 6 months old. All the heifers have not even had these hard spots on their heads... 3 different bulls have bred her... 1st 2 calves were from one bull, next 2 calves a different bull, last year and this bull calf is from a 3rd bull.... She will get bred by a 4th different bull this time... all registered angus... so by rights should not even have a semblence of horns right??? Yeah, I know... Longhorns and the brahma's and other african horned gene animals do not play by the rules...

Lots of longhorns , not registered with the heritage association, have had Watusi blood mixed in throughout the years. Those are hard to poll.

 

[Warren Allison]

I have to just say that I will never accept that "black herefords" are really herefords.... JUST ME.... herefords were a red and white breed... just like limousin were always a shade of reddish color... from light to dark, but always a red/tan.... We have a black reg limousin now... I don't think he is homo black... but his calves have always been black on our crayon box colors of cows.....

That's ok. There are a lot of people who don't accept black Simmental as Simmentals either. If he always throws black calves out of crayon colored calves, he is homo for black.

 

[Brute 23]

62.5% Hereford and the rest Black Angus is a crossbred animal.