Better Grass?

[Cowdirt]

Interesting discussion....

Water could make the difference. Do cattle drink directly from ponds or is the water from stock tanks? I have seen 50 lb difference in weaning weights between direct pond access vs pipelined water in tanks.

Basic soil structure or fertility could make enough difference in forage production to keep the smaller parcel in good supply while the larger parcel runs low on forage by mid-season. remember, the cattle will always know forage is in short supply a month before you do.

One serious consideration that hasn't been mentioned is the possibility that the smaller parcel is enophyte-free tall fescue while the larger parcel is endophyte infected. 75 to 100 lb difference in weaning weights is common between toxic and non-toxic fescue.
Is there any difference in breeding percentage between the two farms? That would be a real clue to what might be going on.

JRG, do you have personal experience with that kind of difference in weight gain with fescue types. That seems a bit much to me. My cattle graze fescue and it has the endophyte I'm sure. I do have a little orchard grass mixed in and quite a bit of ladino clover.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I think you can read all the posts on this thread and add all the little differences and have the answer to what is going on. I don't think its any one major thing but alot of little things.

 

[twabscs]

Red, I completely agree. There are enough small differences between the two parcels to make for a large difference in the end. It boils down to this:

The higher gain parcel has this:

1) Better fertility and so better forage based on it's long-term history of grazing
2) Better (closer) access to better (creek) water
3) It gets a rest during the winter months and still get's added fertility through hay feeding

The bottom line is I need to focus on adding fertility to the other parcel, and I'm doing that through winter hay feeding (unrolling) in different locations. Increasing access to water is also on the long-term menu.

Thanks all for the great discussion. I'll report back next year to see if anything has changed.

Tom

 

[3waycross]

Red, I completely agree. There are enough small differences between the two parcels to make for a large difference in the end. It boils down to this:

The higher gain parcel has this:

1) Better fertility and so better forage based on it's long-term history of grazing
2) Better (closer) access to better (creek) water
3) It gets a rest during the winter months and still get's added fertility through hay feeding

The bottom line is I need to focus on adding fertility to the other parcel, and I'm doing that through winter hay feeding (unrolling) in different locations. Increasing access to water is also on the long-term menu.

Thanks all for the great discussion. I'll report back next year to see if anything has changed.

Tom

We NEVER feed in the same place twice. Always rotate.

 

[JRGidaho`]

Interesting discussion....

Water could make the difference. Do cattle drink directly from ponds or is the water from stock tanks? I have seen 50 lb difference in weaning weights between direct pond access vs pipelined water in tanks.

Basic soil structure or fertility could make enough difference in forage production to keep the smaller parcel in good supply while the larger parcel runs low on forage by mid-season. remember, the cattle will always know forage is in short supply a month before you do.

One serious consideration that hasn't been mentioned is the possibility that the smaller parcel is enophyte-free tall fescue while the larger parcel is endophyte infected. 75 to 100 lb difference in weaning weights is common between toxic and non-toxic fescue.
Is there any difference in breeding percentage between the two farms? That would be a real clue to what might be going on.

JRG, do you have personal experience with that kind of difference in weight gain with fescue types. That seems a bit much to me. My cattle graze fescue and it has the endophyte I'm sure. I do have a little orchard grass mixed in and quite a bit of ladino clover.

Yes, I have personally seen over 100 lb difference in weaning weights on the same farm due to the level of endophyte infection between fields. That large of a difference usually only occurs when there is less than 10% other forage choices in the pasture. You might ask why wouldn't someone do something about that kind of a difference? I was in fescue country before the endophyte was even recognized as being the problem (1975)

A lot of people think they have 50% clover but it is really only 20-30% on a dry yield basis. The more horizontal presentation of clover leaves makes them look like there is more yield than there really is.

I think getting an endophyte test would be money well spent.

 

[Angus Cowman]

I think getting an endophyte test would be money well spent.

Back when you were running on the fescue little research if any had been done on the endophyte

Now it is pretty easy to manage cattle while grazing the endophyte infected fescue
minerals are the easiest way

we took forage samples several yrs ago and had the MU formulate a mineral for our forages that fight the endophyte now most companies" purina,MFA, Vitaferm and a few others " have a steady supply of fescue minerals to assist with this problem

My suggestion is to do a comprehensive soil test and then follow those recommendations also do a forage evaluation and see exactly what % andf types of grasses and legumes you have in your pasture

if it is available you might try and see if you can get any Turkey litter and use that as fertilizer as the organic matter in it is very beneficial
AC

 

[JRGidaho`]

Actually I was running on fescue in MO until 2003. We just moved to Idaho in 2004.

We found the most cost effective solution was to dilute it with other forages. We started with a lot of pastures that were over 90% infected fescue and by the time we left in 2003 they were usually no more than 30% fescue with a wide diversity of legumes, native grasses, crabgrass, and other cool-season grasses like orchardgrass, timothy, red top, smooth brome, etc.

Early on we saved the highest percentage fescue pastures for stockpiling and used them primarily in the winter. In the end, we were comfortable using any pasture in either winter or summer becasue of the plant diversity.

There was one stretch I went three years and fed no salt or mineral. Couldn't tell that it made any difference at all. We typically bred at 93% initially in 60 day season but went to 45-day towards the end becasue it was so much easier at calving time. When I started feeding mineral again it was just from about a month before calving through most of the breeding season.

I agree dealing with infected tall fescue is just having appropriate management. Just managing grazing worked for us. Minerals and other supplements have worked for other people.