Barf!

[Backbone Ranch]

We have had only one small 56 lb calf. It was out of a small Jersey first calf heifer. Our Murray Greys average about 68-75 lbs at birth. The calves are really lively, often they are trying to stand within 5 minutes of birth. We try not to get under 60 lbs for birth weight.

 

[djinwa]

IMNTBHO, if the presentation is correct, and a 2 year old heifer cannot have a 85 to 90 pound calf TOTALLY on her own, then she isn't deserving to be a part of the brood cow population!

George

In your opinion would you keep that cow if her jack rabbit calves weaned off just as big as the larger birthweight calves??

Of course. But it's been my experience that the smaller, lighter calves generally aren't as lively as the calves that were born in a more normal weight range of 75 to 90 lb. That makes them much better coyote bait where I am.

You would think a smaller calf would have a quicker delivery and therefore would be more lively. Or perhaps there is a problem that causes the calf to be both smaller and less lively to begin with. Especially with small calves in herds with genetics for larger birthweights.

 

[SSGenetics]

In your opinion would you keep that cow if her jack rabbit calves weaned off just as big as the larger birthweight calves??

Of course. But it's been my experience that the smaller, lighter calves generally aren't as lively as the calves that were born in a more normal weight range of 75 to 90 lb. That makes them much better coyote bait where I am.

You would think a smaller calf would have a quicker delivery and therefore would be more lively. Or perhaps there is a problem that causes the calf to be both smaller and less lively to begin with. Especially with small calves in herds with genetics for larger birthweights.

Djinwa, please explain why you think the way you do. From experience? Or are you just thinking?

 

[inyati13]

Do you do a three-dimensional pelvimetry?

It;s not really 3d but when it's measured at the smallest points I don;t see as it matters.

Just curious as 3D pelvimetry is one of the things that the French Aubrac bull testing station does for their prospective AI bulls and these bulls' progeny. They believe that it allows them to determine which bulls are better than others regarding their daughters' calving ease (i.e., which bulls have what pelvimetry scores, and then, whether or not their pelvimetry translates through to their daughters ability to calve easily).

It's interesting to me to learn how other breeds and breeders do things. Thanks.

My vet performs the measurement in 2 dimensions on heifers. A. Width of the birthcanal B. Height of the birthcanal. The units used are centimeters. Multiplying the two measurements provides a score in square centimeters. The minimum acceptable measurement at one year of age in Kentucky to meet state certified heifer qualifications is a score of 150 square centimeters. The 3D pelvimetry you reference would include a depth of birthcanal measurement. That is not included in the state of Kentucky certification. measurement. It could be that they are measuring the bulls for depth just to obtain additional data by the French Aubrac bull testing station. Intersting to see how the pelvic opening in a bull would translate to the off-spring!

dun, question. I was of the impression that the vet was just measuring the width (side to side) and height (top to bottom). Are you saying, the pelvimeter is inserted and the two smallest points are determined and used to get the score? You are probably correct but I would like to know. That is a key critical difference.

 

[dun]

Hidth and width are the standard method of measuring. While it seems like an easy thing to do, unless they are fairly skilled at it the measurments can be off if they don;t hit the exact points of the smallest opening. There is a table that shows what maximum weight of calf can be born easily based on the pelvic measurement. Last year we had a heifer calve a 93 pound surprise and her pelvic measurement was 130 sq centimeters. Not hardly ideal, but it's obviously doable. The heifer that calved the backwards calf yesterday had a 168 as a yearling

 

[inyati13]

Hidth and width are the standard method of measuring. While it seems like an easy thing to do, unless they are fairly skilled at it the measurments can be off if they don;t hit the exact points of the smallest opening. There is a table that shows what maximum weight of calf can be born easily based on the pelvic measurement. Last year we had a heifer calve a 93 pound surprise and her pelvic measurement was 130 sq centimeters. Not hardly ideal, but it's obviously doable. The heifer that calved the backwards calf yesterday had a 168 as a yearling

BTW: I meant square. Sorry. Thanks.

 

[inyati13]

Hidth and width are the standard method of measuring. While it seems like an easy thing to do, unless they are fairly skilled at it the measurments can be off if they don;t hit the exact points of the smallest opening. There is a table that shows what maximum weight of calf can be born easily based on the pelvic measurement. Last year we had a heifer calve a 93 pound surprise and her pelvic measurement was 130 sq centimeters. Not hardly ideal, but it's obviously doable. The heifer that calved the backwards calf yesterday had a 168 as a yearling

dun, I am thinking you do your own?

 

[dun]

Hidth and width are the standard method of measuring. While it seems like an easy thing to do, unless they are fairly skilled at it the measurments can be off if they don;t hit the exact points of the smallest opening. There is a table that shows what maximum weight of calf can be born easily based on the pelvic measurement. Last year we had a heifer calve a 93 pound surprise and her pelvic measurement was 130 sq centimeters. Not hardly ideal, but it's obviously doable. The heifer that calved the backwards calf yesterday had a 168 as a yearling

dun, I am thinking you do your own?

Nope, the vet does. Whne I breed the I do a kind of rough gess by if I can extend my fingers as wide as possible and not touch the sides they should be ok. One catch is there is always the exceptions. Friends of ours used one particular bull and when they did the pelvic on his daughters the measurments were OK. Whne they started calvin ggthe had to do C-sections. It seems that for some obscure reason the pelvis wasn;t all that much bigger at calving as it had been at yearling. That made me wonder if maybe they had screwed up when they did the first measurement, they did it themselves after having purchased a pelvimeter.
The chart:
http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/Beef%20Ca ... ements.pdf

 

[inyati13]

Hidth and width are the standard method of measuring. While it seems like an easy thing to do, unless they are fairly skilled at it the measurments can be off if they don;t hit the exact points of the smallest opening. There is a table that shows what maximum weight of calf can be born easily based on the pelvic measurement. Last year we had a heifer calve a 93 pound surprise and her pelvic measurement was 130 sq centimeters. Not hardly ideal, but it's obviously doable. The heifer that calved the backwards calf yesterday had a 168 as a yearling

dun, I am thinking you do your own?

Nope, the vet does. Whne I breed the I do a kind of rough gess by if I can extend my fingers as wide as possible and not touch the sides they should be ok. One catch is there is always the exceptions. Friends of ours used one particular bull and when they did the pelvic on his daughters the measurments were OK. Whne they started calvin ggthe had to do C-sections. It seems that for some obscure reason the pelvis wasn;t all that much bigger at calving as it had been at yearling. That made me wonder if maybe they had screwed up when they did the first measurement, they did it themselves after having purchased a pelvimeter.
The chart:
http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/Beef%20Ca ... ements.pdf

I saved that. Excellent!

 

[plumber_greg]

To get your weaning weights up you gotta' get the birth weights up. I know all about the CE bulls that, "The calves grow just as big as the larger BW calves." However, most can, but won't say, "I don't really have numbers to prove that, but it sure looked like that to me." Or the "A small calf that is alive is better than a dead big one." A good heifer can and should have a good calf, and a good calf is worth more than a poor one. Like Bez said if she can't do, then cull the POS. gs

 

[dun]

To get your weaning weights up you gotta' get the birth weights up. I know all about the CE bulls that, "The calves grow just as big as the larger BW calves." However, most can, but won't say, "I don't really have numbers to prove that, but it sure looked like that to me." Or the "A small calf that is alive is better than a dead big one." A good heifer can and should have a good calf, and a good calf is worth more than a poor one. Like Bez said if she can't do, then cull the POS. gs

I;ve got the numbers to back it up. The claves that are 10 opunds heavier at birth are still only about 10 pounds heavier at weaning. But our calves typically run in the 65-80 lbs range. We have one particular cow who generally has one of the smallest calves that wean usually in the top 1% for weight. I'ls almost like to clone her.

 

[WalnutCrest]

GS -- there us a third explanation ... "I fed the hell out of them."

 

[dun]

GS -- there us a third explanation ... "I fed the be nice out of them."

For us the secret to good weaning weights is genetics and good quality (for fescue) pasture. The genetics are adapted to our forage base/(mis)managment. Feed won;t do any good with the genetics but the genetics won;t do any good with the feed. Had a neighbor, now out of the business, that maintained if he wasn;t pulling 10% pf his calves he wasn;t "callenging" his cows. He challenged them right out of business, but his weaning weights wre no better then ours. Never fertilized or limed, kept the pastures grazed to the dirt and would wean about 75% of the calves per cows exposed.

 

[SPH]

To get your weaning weights up you gotta' get the birth weights up. I know all about the CE bulls that, "The calves grow just as big as the larger BW calves." However, most can, but won't say, "I don't really have numbers to prove that, but it sure looked like that to me." Or the "A small calf that is alive is better than a dead big one." A good heifer can and should have a good calf, and a good calf is worth more than a poor one. Like Bez said if she can't do, then cull the POS. gs

You also have to get a live calf first too else the rest of the weights are irrlevant. I don't believe in direct correlation that higher BW = higher WW. All depends on the genetics in the pairing, how well that cow milks, what kind of conditions will that cow/calf pair be in, and how the breeder feeds his cattle. Some people do little to no creep and some feed the heck out of them prior to weaning. Some set the cows out on pasture and don't supplement any other feed while others will still feed the cows something while on pasture. All that is going to affect weights.

 

[houstoncutter]

Interesting, you gonna call a first calf heifer a pos if she has trouble calving a 85 lb calf, but you will keep a cow that doesn't wean off 55% of her weight.

 

[TexasBred]

To get your weaning weights up you gotta' get the birth weights up. I know all about the CE bulls that, "The calves grow just as big as the larger BW calves." However, most can, but won't say, "I don't really have numbers to prove that, but it sure looked like that to me." Or the "A small calf that is alive is better than a dead big one." A good heifer can and should have a good calf, and a good calf is worth more than a poor one. Like Bez said if she can't do, then cull the POS. gs

Bez is wrong unless he happens to own one that is actually a POS. Brangus cattle which are very common in our area have calves that typically range from 65-75 lbs. at birth with some exceptions, yet they have no problem obtaining weaning weights comparable to those from cattle that have larger calves. Mama's milk and good grass does that as well as the calfs inherent ability to convert it to gain. Now mom and dad's tendency to produce low birth weight calves. BTW, few around her feed calves. They simply graze cattle.

 

[plumber_greg]

Richard you are right about the eared cattle. I had Santa Gertudis bull years ago. Calves came out like wet noodles and grew like crazy.
Dun, don't for a minute doubt your figures. But I still can't wrap my head around the fact that if you took those 65lb heifer calves, bred them to a low birthweight bull, and did it for several generations that even with closely watched genetics, your weaning weights would go down. They would soon be having those 50 lb birthweights, and those calves can't wean as big as the original great-grandma's calves were, even tho' in their comtempory group, they were within 10 lbs of each other. I just think to get the weaning weights up, you gotta' keep the birthweights up. Otherwise, lets all go to 30lb calves. JMHO gs

 

[dun]

Richard you are right about the eared cattle. I had Santa Gertudis bull years ago. Calves came out like wet noodles and grew like crazy.
Dun, don't for a minute doubt your figures. But I still can't wrap my head around the fact that if you took those 65lb heifer calves, bred them to a low birthweight bull, and did it for several generations that even with closely watched genetics, your weaning weights would go down. They would soon be having those 50 lb birthweights, and those calves can't wean as big as the original great-grandma's calves were, even tho' in their comtempory group, they were within 10 lbs of each other. I just think to get the weaning weights up, you gotta' keep the birthweights up. Otherwise, lets all go to 30lb calves. JMHO gs

That's where that for letter word EPDs comes in. There are enough bulls available via AI that will tyhrough smaller calves (not runts) and still have daughters that will have the same size calves and they'll all grow. We've been breeding average BW ( around 65-75 pound) calves that are still weaning in the 650-750 range. No creep, just pasture and milk. Even thos heifers first calves wean in the high 5s-low 60s. I tried following the weaning weights on some cows, always bred to the same bulls. Some years they weaned a lighter calf, some years a heavier one, didn;t always increase as they matured like I had expected. When they would wean a lighter calf, every body weaned a lighter calf. And vice versa. That I directly attribute to the quality of the forage from year to year.

 

[Till-Hill]

Had a SimAngus heifer who herself was out of a heifer born at 85 lbs have a 95 lb bull this am along with an under developed twin heifer. I'd rather heifers were in the 70-85 lb mark but they can do it. I got no need for under 60 lbs. Had 2 last year. One never got over 250 lbs other weaned off at under 400. Rest the calves were 520-625. Lost alot of money on them 2 dinks.

 

[TexasBred]

Had a SimAngus heifer who herself was out of a heifer born at 85 lbs have a 95 lb bull this am along with an under developed twin heifer. I'd rather heifers were in the 70-85 lb mark but they can do it. I got no need for under 60 lbs. Had 2 last year. One never got over 250 lbs other weaned off at under 400. Rest the calves were 520-625. Lost alot of money on them 2 dinks.

Sounds like those two came from some of those POS cows Bez mentioned. Maybe they need a ride.