Barf!

[Till-Hill]

The cow that had the 250# one long gone. Other cow I hope was just mated wrong but she don't wean bug calf this year she gone.

 

[randiliana]

OK, I did some number crunching here. I am totally in agreement with Bez on this discussion. At least in our climate anyways. Things can very easily be different in a warmer climate... AI and proven AI bulls aside, BW is IMO directly linked to WW. The lighter the BW the lighter the WW in general. Sure there are 'curve benders' out there, but if you're running bulls on the hoof, chances are you're going to lose on WW if you reduce your BW.

I detest under 70 lb calves, and the lighter they get the more I hate them. In my calving situations 50-70 lb calves are usually the ones that cause problems. Usually they are weaker calves, if it's cold out they chill a lot faster than a 85+ lb calf.

So, here's what the numbers in my herd for the last 5 years looked like... I removed all the twins and adopted calves out of the figuring. And divided it : Under 70 lbs, 70-79, 80-89, 90-99, 100-109, 110 and up. The differences are from 1 group to the next only. So from the 70 lbs to the 80 lbs for example.

On the cow side of thing (3 year old and up) there was a total of 516 calves. Most of these are home bred calves, but a few will be out of cows we bought.
Under 70 lbs, 18 head - Avg BW 63, avg 205 DW 507, Avg ADG 2.17
70-79 lbs, 73 head - BW 75, 205 DW 548, ADG 2.31 - Diff of BW 12, 205 DW 41
80-89 lbs, 147 head - BW 84, 205 DW 573, ADG 2.38 - Diff of BW 9, 205 DW 24
90-99 lbs, 162 head - BW 94, 205 DW 595, ADG 2.44 - Diff of BW 10, 205 DW 23
100-109 lbs, 88 head - BW 104, 205 DW 632, ADG 2.57 - Diff of BW 10, 205 DW 37
Over 110 lbs, 28 head - BW 115, 205 DW 673, ADG 2.73 - Diff of BW 11, 205 DW 41
Difference in Weights from the Under 70's to over 110's was BW 52 lbs, 205 DW 166 lbs

On the Heifer side of things, (2 year olds) there was a total of 141 calves. This consists of heifers we bred to our bulls and heifers we bought.
Under 70 lbs, 24 head - BW 64, 205 DW 484, ADG 2.05
70-79 lbs, 49 head - BW 75, 205 DW 514, ADG 2.14 - Diff of BW 11, 205 DW 30
80-89 lbs, 48 head - BW 84, 205 DW 522, ADG 2.13 - Diff of BW 9, 205 DW 8
90-99 lbs, 20 head - BW 94, 205 DW 583. ADG 2.39 - Diff of BW 9, 205 DW 62
Difference in weights from under 70's to 90-99's was BW 31 lbs, 205 DW 86 lbs
There were a handful of heifers that had calves over 100 lbs. Most if not all of those calves were assisted if not C-sections, only a couple of those heifers stayed in the herd and actually raised that calf. Their weaning weights tended to be quite low. For example 1 had by C-section a 108 lb calf, 205 DW 455 ADG 1.69....

These are the actual numbers and they show quite a difference. I wouldn't necessarily recommend increasing BW to the top end of the scale. While there are definitely cows that can handle 110+ lb calves, the higher the BW the bigger the chance of having to assist. In our herd I like to see cows having 85-100 lb calves, and heifers 75-90 lbs. Those tend to be the best investment. Calves the cows/heifers can have on their own and that grow out really well. OTOH, I have no problem with a cow that has smaller calves if they actually do grow and I don't have to fight to get them going, or cows that have bigger calves so long as they can have them on their own.

Oh, and just in case anyone was wondering, the lightest calf was 42 lbs and the heaviest calf was 130 lbs

 

[Nesikep]

I would cull her if she was UNABLE to have a calf bigger than that... She can have low birthweights all she wants all long as they grow well. Remember too that the shape of the calf plays a large role too... if you have a blockheaded stubby bull calf at 80 lbs he might be more trouble than a long slender 100lb'er. One of my better cows had an 85 lb bull calf last year (my average BW is 100lbs), but I know that she'd be fine with anything up to 130 or so. I left that bull calf intact and he weaned the heaviest of them all. I like having cows I can trust with higher birthweights because that opens up the field in the bull market and you can probably get a much better price on a bull that was a couple lbs heavier than the norm, just because there's less demand for them.

Edit.. didn't see page 2 and Randi's post, which I completely agree with..

There is a "good" range, and 80-110 should be worry-free for any decent cow, and 70-90 for heifers should be about right.. going too far either way deliberately is pointless, but I don't see a reason to cull for small birthweights if the weaning weights are good.

I had one cow who was a small cow by my standards, 4 years old, probably frame 5, who'd throw 110 lb calves and wean them at 450.. I wanted to ship her badly, but I waited until she calved again, then I gave her calf to another cow who lost hers and she got shipped. The cow who adopted died of heatstroke in july, and once again the calf was orphaned... but he was 600 at shipping time nevertheless and fit in well with the other average steers

I found that calves that are born heavier sometimes have a harder time standing up, but they start to eat hay MUCH earlier than lighter calves... I found that typically they'll start eating around 120-140 lbs, and I found that the really big guys (130 lb BW's) start eating hay within a week, and be chewing cud by 3 weeks. The lighter calves will be a couple weeks behind them. Also, a heavier BW calf will need a better milking mother to give him a good start, while a small calf can do better on less until the cow "gets going" with milk production, which is especially true in first calfers.

While a graph of Randi's numbers clearly show increased weaning weights with increased birthweights, is it a reasonable assumption that the bigger cows typically had the bigger calves, and that they also had more milk?

 

[plumber_greg]

After reading these posts, maybe it's a northern thing. Of course, I am not as far north as some. I calve in the winter, and BW makes a difference in how fast they get up. Have read where someone comments on a small calf getting up and taking off. Maybe some, but in 0 degrees they have a tough time, so do bigger ones, just not as much. I'll find a cold, needing help, small calf way before I'll find one 15lbs heavier.
Dun has a good herd of cows, but could he if he wanted take his (mis)managed herd, apply the same (mis)management, and get the BW up 15 lbs and still have near zero calving problems"? His WW are fine now, but would it add 30 or so to WW?
Dun, I can see that the cows calves didn't get a lot bigger as they matured, I always thought my heifers weaned nearly as big a calf as my 5 year olds. Please don't go out and buy semen from a 130 BW bull from what you might think, you might have read, that; you might have thought someone said------------never mind. gs

 

[dun]

Because of the weather conditions, our calves would probably be born 10-15 lbs heavier if they were raised further north. The environment has a lot to do with BW, the colder it is the bigger the calves. That has to do with the redirection of the cows blood supply to the interior so more nutrients for the calf.

 

[Nesikep]

Weather does have something to do with it, but for the most part our winters aren't that cold compared to the prarie areas... we spend december through february at about a -10C (about 15F), with perhaps a couple colder snaps here and there. I'd hate to know what our BW's would be if that was 15C colder for that time frame!

 

[TexasBred]

While a graph of Randi's numbers clearly show increased weaning weights with increased birthweights, is it a reasonable assumption that the bigger cows typically had the bigger calves, and that they also had more milk?

Nesi I mentioned brangus earlier. It is very common down here to have 1600 lb. brangus cattle give birth to 70 lb. calves that wean at 600+ lbs. and weigh 1000 or more as yearlings. Another variable will always be the quality of the milk and the length of the growing season. Not all is equal.

 

[cross_7]

While a graph of Randi's numbers clearly show increased weaning weights with increased birthweights, is it a reasonable assumption that the bigger cows typically had the bigger calves, and that they also had more milk?

Nesi I mentioned brangus earlier. It is very common down here to have 1600 lb. brangus cattle give birth to 70 lb. calves that wean at 600+ lbs. and weigh 1000 or more as yearlings. Another variable will always be the quality of the milk and the length of the growing season. Not all is equal.

You google that ?
If she weighs 1600 and only weaning 600 calf she needs to go !

 

[Nesikep]

I agree that a cow of that size should do better... Here is a first timer who weaned a 600 lb steer... he looked good enough I kept him for myself. She's a smaller cow that's built like a brick sh&thouse. She did lose some condition doing it, but she's in fine shape again now and ready to do it again. I don't know what she weighs in that picture... she's about 24 months old when she had that calf, I figure 1100 or so?

 

[TexasBred]

While a graph of Randi's numbers clearly show increased weaning weights with increased birthweights, is it a reasonable assumption that the bigger cows typically had the bigger calves, and that they also had more milk?

Nesi I mentioned brangus earlier. It is very common down here to have 1600 lb. brangus cattle give birth to 70 lb. calves that wean at 600+ lbs. and weigh 1000 or more as yearlings. Another variable will always be the quality of the milk and the length of the growing season. Not all is equal.

You google that ?
If she weighs 1600 and only weaning 600 calf she needs to go !

Could have been 800....I simply said 600+.

 

[TexasBred]

While a graph of Randi's numbers clearly show increased weaning weights with increased birthweights, is it a reasonable assumption that the bigger cows typically had the bigger calves, and that they also had more milk?

Nesi I mentioned brangus earlier. It is very common down here to have 1600 lb. brangus cattle give birth to 70 lb. calves that wean at 600+ lbs. and weigh 1000 or more as yearlings. Another variable will always be the quality of the milk and the length of the growing season. Not all is equal.

You google that ?
If she weighs 1600 and only weaning 600 calf she needs to go !

Think so? I simply said 600+..could have been closer to 800 :shock: Regardless the calf is as big as her mom now and due to calf next month.

 

[Nesikep]

My cows are all 800lb+ and wean off 500lb+ calves :O

 

[TexasBred]

My cows are all 800lb+ and wean off 500lb+ calves :O

Mine were registered and sold for #3K plus. :nod: Regardless even if both sold on same market we're both putting the same $$ in our pocket and I get to graze 9 months out of the year so any feed cost is minimal. Different locations,different climate, different cattle, different market, different cost....too many variables to put all emphasis on any one thing like WW and say "I win".

 

[Nesikep]

Certainly true. We are working on better marketing, which should mean $1000 average for all weights, steers and heifers combined... lets hope it works out. We graze about 7 months of the year.. we could do 8 but it would be a pain in the arse keeping them away from the bull for that first month.

One thing we can probably all agree on is that when the average cattle producer starts to make a profit, someone will come in and put some sticks in our spokes.. wether it's BSE, or "High feed prices", or "Low demand" to depress the prices once again...

 

[plumber_greg]

Nice thread, learning something. gs

 

[randiliana]

I found that calves that are born heavier sometimes have a harder time standing up, but they start to eat hay MUCH earlier than lighter calves... I found that typically they'll start eating around 120-140 lbs, and I found that the really big guys (130 lb BW's) start eating hay within a week, and be chewing cud by 3 weeks. The lighter calves will be a couple weeks behind them. Also, a heavier BW calf will need a better milking mother to give him a good start, while a small calf can do better on less until the cow "gets going" with milk production, which is especially true in first calfers.

While a graph of Randi's numbers clearly show increased weaning weights with increased birthweights, is it a reasonable assumption that the bigger cows typically had the bigger calves, and that they also had more milk?

Generally I would say that the cows having larger BW's were larger cows. But our herd is in the 1200-1400 range. With most cows probably 1250-1350. We have and have had a few smaller cows (1000-1100 lbs) in the herd and generally they tend to always have a smaller calf in comparison with their larger herd mates. I know I've never concerned myself with what bull I bred them to, at least as far as BW goes.

The cow that had the biggest calf (and she always had high BW calves) weighed 1380 lbs (8 years old) when we sold her because she developed cancer eye. We helped her with her 1st calf, and we assisted her the year she had the 130 lb calf (he was about 5 days early). Her average BW was 110 lbs, and her average 205 DW was 686 lbs. She was a purebred Hereford, that we raised. We kept her one and only heifer, who raised 4 calves before coming up dry. Her avg BW was 83 lbs and avg 205 DW was 577....

 

[Nesikep]

I'm in the slow process of reducing the size of my mature cows to about 1500 max, with 1300 as about right for us. The one cow that I had (the one that had a stroke this time last year, about 1500 lbs), her first calf was a nice 80 lb heifer that she weaned off at 700 lbs, and from there on in she went for BW records, first with a 140 lb bull calf, then a 120 lb heifer (Mega), and 2 more 140lb bull calves. All unassisted, and the one that I got to witness she plopped out 2 minutes after she really got down to business. Her daughter seems to have slightly more sane BW, though her first bull was 110 lb and was lightly assisted (just hands, no chains), her second, a heifer, was 90 lbs... She's probably around 1300 lbs now at 4 years old.

Last year my monster (probably 1900 lbs) had twins.. And I didn't suspect it, the first was 110 lbs, and the next day she wasn't doing well so I checked inside and there was another 110 lb'er in there as a breech birth.. got it straightened and pulled out, but it was dead.. at least she was fine after that. Her full sister (she's the same size) had twins the year before and they were 65 and 75 lbs.

Though I don't have nearly a big enough herd to get definitive data from, I find that the calves with a higher BW tend to have higher ADG as well. If I look at all the calves born above 110 lbs in 2012, including from heifers, the ADG was about 2.7 average... if I take all the calves less than 110 lb BW, the average is 2.5 ADG. So that's close to a quarter pound a day difference. My numbers are VERY close to Randiliana's numbers. I will say that all the cows that had the big calves are all good cows, while I have a bunch in the other group that will grow wheels as soon as I have better up-and-comers.

Using Randi's numbers, the 110+ group had a half pound a day better gain than the 60-70lb group, and don't forget the 50 lb advantage to add to it.
It is true that a small live calf is always worth more than a big dead one, but it's no use going out of your way to have small calves if your cows can handle a bigger one.

 

[branguscowgirl]

My cows are all 800lb+ and wean off 500lb+ calves :O

Mine were registered and sold for #3K plus. :nod: Regardless even if both sold on same market we're both putting the same $$ in our pocket and I get to graze 9 months out of the year so any feed cost is minimal. Different locations,different climate, different cattle, different market, different cost....too many variables to put all emphasis on any one thing like WW and say "I win".

Exactly! :clap: :clap: :clap:
I also raise Registered Brangus. My girls weigh between 1,400 to 1,800 when mature. Their birth weights are all over the board, and they all end up big cows. Selling them privately and not by the pound at any age, they will bring the same or more dollars per head as any others. (In other words, BW and WW has not been that important in my breeding program. Has not made a difference in my sales.) Different cattle, different feed bills, different market. "Variables."

 

[Nesikep]

I think that perhaps I didn't exaggerate enough and some of the humour in my post wasn't conveyed when I said "My cows are all 800lb+ and wean off 500lb+ calves" which was in response to TB saying that his big cows weaned "over 600, but it might have been closer to 800 lbs"

Perhaps if I said my cows are 400+ lbs and wean 500+ lb calves the humour would be better seen?

 

[cross_7]

I think that perhaps I didn't exaggerate enough and some of the humour in my post wasn't conveyed when I said "My cows are all 800lb+ and wean off 500lb+ calves" which was in response to TB saying that his big cows weaned "over 600, but it might have been closer to 800 lbs"

Perhaps if I said my cows are 400+ lbs and wean 500+ lb calves the humour would be better seen?

The 800# cows and 500# calf is not uncommon in the desert southwest