Are f1's and f2's better cows then straight breed?

[Txwalt]

Trying to explain heterosis to a friend of mine and he threw some questions at me that I wasn't sure about. While using the search tab on this site I only came up with more questions so here goes. One post said "f1 + f1 = f2". Is this correct? What about f1 + straight = ?. Will f1 cows produce better calfs compared to straight breed cows mated with a completely different breed of bull? I may not be explaining this right so here is the long way around it and what I'm really looiking at. When I'm picking replacement heifers should I go with 3/4 red brangus 1/4 hereford, or straight red brangus. I'm going to put a charolais bull on them for a terminal cross in a couple years. I'm thinking either cow would give me the same quality calf if all things are equal. But, would the mixed cow live a little longer? Be healthier and easier keeping? I guess I'm not sure if heterosis extends to longevity,easier keeping, and dental health. If there is a difference how much of a difference?

Walt

 

[dun]

Theoretically he F1 cow when bred to the same bull will poduce a heifier calf then a sraightbred. I don;t recall the % heavier. The F1 cald will wean heavier then a straightbred. The optimum is an F1 bred to another unrelated breed. F bred to an indenical F1 creates an F2. F2s won;t raise as heavy a calf as an F1, something about recombining genes.
That's the theory. But for consisant results in the production of replacements you still reguire straightbred cattle for predictability.

 

[novatech]

Trying to explain heterosis to a friend of mine and he threw some questions at me that I wasn't sure about. While using the search tab on this site I only came up with more questions so here goes. One post said "f1 + f1 = f2". Is this correct? What about f1 + straight = ?. Will f1 cows produce better calfs compared to straight breed cows mated with a completely different breed of bull? I may not be explaining this right so here is the long way around it and what I'm really looiking at. When I'm picking replacement heifers should I go with 3/4 red brangus 1/4 hereford, or straight red brangus. I'm going to put a charolais bull on them for a terminal cross in a couple years. I'm thinking either cow would give me the same quality calf if all things are equal. But, would the mixed cow live a little longer? Be healthier and easier keeping? I guess I'm not sure if heterosis extends to longevity,easier keeping, and dental health. If there is a difference how much of a difference?

Walt

You are correct in the F1 x F1 = F2.
Here is a site that may help with the rest. Heterosis improves more than weight gain.
http://www.noble.org/Ag/Livestock/Heterosis/index.html
And another one
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AN116

 

[Caustic Burno]

Theoretically he F1 cow when bred to the same bull will poduce a heifier calf then a sraightbred. I don;t recall the % heavier. The F1 cald will wean heavier then a straightbred. The optimum is an F1 bred to another unrelated breed. F bred to an indenical F1 creates an F2. F2s won;t raise as heavy a calf as an F1, something about recombining genes.
That's the theory. But for consisant results in the production of replacements you still reguire straightbred cattle for predictability.

Here is the percentage Dun.
When straightbred cows reared crossbreed calves there was an average extra 8.5 percent increase in weight of calf weaned per cow. If these crossbred dams were then used to rear crossbred calves, a further 14.8 percent increase was seen as a result of the better maternal genetic environment provided by the crossbred dams. The extra calf weight from using crossbred dams to rear crossbred calves was 23.3% as compared with straightbred cows rearing straightbred calves. This resulted in a potential return increase of $40-45 per cow.

 

[MoGal]

http://extension.missouri.edu/explore/a ... g02040.htm

There's also a link. I've googled Crossbreeding quite a bit and there's a wealth of info out there.

Just remember there aren't any studies out there that shows a straightbred cow out performs a crossbred cow.

We have a char/lim cow and her first calf is a dandy. I plan on keeping her and she's out of a herf/angus bull.

 

[Caustic Burno]

http://extension.missouri.edu/explore/agguides/ansci/g02040.htm

There's also a link. I've googled Crossbreeding quite a bit and there's a wealth of info out there.

Just remember there aren't any studies out there that shows a straightbred cow out performs a crossbred cow.

We have a char/lim cow and her first calf is a dandy. I plan on keeping her and she's out of a herf/angus bull.

A straight bred calf will never outperform a crossbred calf you are correct. This why you really have to watch seedstock producers breeding for the extremes. Crossbred calves are typically larger at birth. Hybred vigor doesn't wait till after calving to start.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Very good discussion but everyone needs to bear in mind, those percentages are averages. Some of mine are below average at times. When I get one exceptionally better than average, it is a good feeling. Usually I am a bit below.

 

[TheBullLady]

I've heard them referred to as "three way" crosses. An F1 cow bred to a totally different bull, you can't beat that for hybrid vigor. If you're in a warm climate, having half of that F1 be a Brahman is ideal

 

[Txwalt]

I've heard them referred to as "three way" crosses. An F1 cow bred to a totally different bull, you can't beat that for hybrid vigor. If you're in a warm climate, having half of that F1 be a Brahman is ideal

Half? Even Brangus are not half. What would you cross with the Brahman to get your f1? Just asking for your opinion since you live in my area.

Walt

 

[Beefy]

it gets a little tricky when you are dealing with composite breeds like brangus that are already part brahman.

a red angus x brahman would create an f1 consisting of half brahman and half red angus. this calf bred to a charolais would make a 3 way cross, which maximizes heterosis.

 

[Arnold Ziffle]

Txwalt -- in Texas and the South we frequently see Char bulls with Brangus, Beefmaster and/or "tigerstripe" cows to obtain growthy terminal cross calves that are no more than 25% Brahman influenced. ( In my area years ago, before the Char rage began, many folks used Simmental bulls as a terminal sire. ) Those are essentially three-way crosses. I guess the oldtimers out in the country figured things out a long time ago without the fancy studies. But I think you'll find that many researchers believe heterosis to be maximized by using a three-way cross and also by the use of the most dissimilar breeds --- such as combining English and Continental (bos taurus) with one of the bos indicus breeds (Brahman, Nelore, Gyr, etc.). Click on the link below to read a good article on heterosis, the use of three-way crosses, use of dissimilar breeds, etc.

http://beef-mag.com/mag/beef_systematic_crossbreeding/


In our state of Texas when people refer to f1 crosses they probably most often have in mind a cross of Hereford x Brahman to get the "tigerstripe" or "chocolate brown" calf. But it could also be Angus (black) x Brahman. In many other parts of the country f1 probably is most often Hereford x Angus. But of course you can get any number of crosses that result in f1's, since "f1" simply refers to the offspring from the mating of two fullblooded animals of different breeds.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I've heard them referred to as "three way" crosses. An F1 cow bred to a totally different bull, you can't beat that for hybrid vigor. If you're in a warm climate, having half of that F1 be a Brahman is ideal

Half? Even Brangus are not half. What would you cross with the Brahman to get your f1? Just asking for your opinion since you live in my area.

Walt

yep brangus are concidered a breed. my top favorites F1's or bra/hereford or bra/simmi.. those two are the cream that rises to the top as far as the bra influanced moma's. you can set your watch by em. top them off with a good angus/cont. bull and you are good to go. calves that will perform and a moma to see to it. as far as the F2's i had soon have purebred unless you got a certain goal in mind

 

[TheBullLady]

... which is the point I meant to make, I wasn't taking into consideration the actual percentage on a Brangus, which is the same as Simbrah, 5/8 x 3/8.

We run a Simmental bull on the Brahman cows, to get a "percentage Simbrah" cow, which you can put a Hereford, Angus, Char, etc. etc. back on and get an outstanding calf, plus the cow is perfect for this environment.

 

[Txwalt]

Thanks for the posts. Seems like heterosis does affect longevity. It also appears that cross breed cows out produce thier straight breed counter parts (everything else being equal). F1 + F1= F2. F1 + pure = 3way? I also gathered that in the south one should want around 25% brahman influence. I also did some calculations and figured out that if you cross a brangus with anything else without brahman in it you'll end up with 19%. I figure 6% points won't lose you much as far as growth goes. Cross that f1 back to a brangus and you end up with 28% brahman influence.

Walt