Another Hereford Question

[El_Putzo]

I know you guys are getting tired of hearing about my dilemas and it seems as though some members feel like the board has been hijacked by hereford breeders, but I've got another question for you guys that have been in the hereford breed for a while.

I have been contemplating which AI sire I will use this spring and would like to pose the following: I have the chance to use some Feltons 517 semen at a reasonable price but am not sure if I could produce better offspring with 517 himself, or one of his progeny (DR World Class, Huth stacked Deck, CMF RF Genetic Phase)? The sons and grandsons have better epds and have a little more of the "look" I'm wanting, but at the same time, I may never have a chance to use 517 again as his semen is limited.

I can't make up my mind to go with the younger, better numbered bulls, or go with the legendary 517.

So, what do you guys think. Keep in mind I'm trying to build a herd here and that my 4 heifers have a lot of the Feltons bloodline in them. What would you do if you had the option to use 517?

TIA for you opinions.

 

[Hill Creek Farm]

Hi James! Well, what type of milk numbers do your heifers have? I just wouldn't use 517 on any old animal. Does your animals have EPDs? I like DR WORLD CLASS 517 10H. He is an outstanding bull, that I have used AI and Naturally. World Class is a proven bull and he would be my first pick. 517 semen is limited and I do have only 5 straws left in my tank. Just remember that Feltons 517 milk number is only a 13. The average is 14. Do what you wish, but I would choose World Class. :cboy:

 

[El_Putzo]

My heifers do not have great milk numbers. Here are their numbers.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C272722242E22&9=5E5D5E

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C27272223272E&9=5E5D5D

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C272722232024&9=5E5C5F

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C272722222526&9=5E5C5C


I do have another option I suppose. I could go ahead and buy the 517 semen and keep it in the tank. Then breed my current heifers to a sire not from the Feltons line, like PW Victor Boomer and save the 517 semen to use on future heifers out of Victor Boomer. I don't think it would be a good thing to breed them to World Class and keep heifers and then breed them back to their grandpa (517).

That sounds confusing but just might work. I'm afraid if I pass on the chance to get 517 semen now, I will pay out my nose for it later if it's even available at all. Maybe I'm a little to excited about using 517 but it seems as though he has made such an impression on the hereford breed that it would be a shame not to use him if I have the chance.

 

[dun]

I do have another option I suppose. I could go ahead and buy the 517 semen and keep it in the tank.

Persoanlly I think that's the right choice. But I really like the grandaughters I have from him and would like to have some direct daughters.

dun

 

[El_Putzo]

Sounds like you're thinking the same as me Dun. Now, how do I convince my wife that I need to buy several hundred dollars worth of semen that is going to sit in a tank for at least 2 years until I can use it on my next batch of homemade heifers?

How about this, you buy the 517 semen for me now and hold it for 2 years, then I'll come get it from you and pay you for it then. I might even give you some interest (Case of beer, or 5th of whiskey) for keeping it for me. :lol: :lol:

 

[dun]

Sounds like you're thinking the same as me Dun. Now, how do I convince my wife that I need to buy several hundred dollars worth of semen that is going to sit in a tank for at least 2 years until I can use it on my next batch of homemade heifers?

How about this, you buy the 517 semen for me now and hold it for 2 years, then I'll come get it from you and pay you for it then. I might even give you some interest (Case of beer, or 5th of whiskey) for keeping it for me. :lol: :lol:

Or I could buy it and test it out for you to make sure it's good.

dun

 

[El_Putzo]

That reminds me of a little comic strip I saw once.

Two boys were sharing a glass of soda and the first one drinks the whole glass. The second boy says "Hey, you drank all the soda". The first one says "Your half was on top, I had to drink it to get to my half" :lol:

 

[fellersbarnoneranch]

Ya'll hijack this anytime you want! Long as I am not catching he!! for raising "Red Angus" I don't mind a bit! And it is always interesting to hear about other breeds and not to mention a break from ANGUS vs. the disgruntled WORLD!

 

[LFF]

I say buy 517 and save.

Wordd Class should be great on heifers , but I really dislike his carcass data. His carcass data really is not that important at this time , however somewhere in the near (2-5) years I believe that is going to change. Pounds is what is important now.

CMF Gentic Phase : boy I like most of his numbers , however he too needs better carcass epd's to me. Genetic Phase really cause me to question why Mr. Reed or Mr. Helms used him very little in their herds?
Have you seen a mature picture of him ? I think he is very ugly in the front quarters. He gets that from Phase , which I also do not like.


SCHU-LAR 5N OF 9L 3008 (P42375618)
My choice for heifers is a unproven bull. This is not a sales pitch because I don't have any ownership of this bull nor do I know his owners. He falls short in the milk epd with only a 17 , but that is above average and most of my heifers are in the low to mid twentys for milk. I was told through a e-mail message that semen and certificates are available and that SHUL-AR 5N will be in the March addition of Hereford World.

I'm sure some of you folks have seen my choice for AI use on mature cows HUTH PROPSECTOR N065 (P42409394). I'm really tempted to use him on a heifer that I have that has a calving ease of 6.8 and birth weight of 2.3. The bulls calving ease is in the upper 10 % for 2004 with a 3.6 but his birth weight is a 4.5 . Everyone says to use the calving ease epd if available , so I may try him.

Good luck with you decission
I really don't think that you will go wrong either way or with the bulls that you are looking at , just thought I see what you and the other hereford folks thoughts were.
[/quote]

 

[Campground Cattle]

http://www.reedent.com/reedent/reedindex.htm


BRAXTON GIANT 1
REG# X21834167

Vindicator
REG# X20928199

Star Emblem WS 108D
REG# X23791047


DUNWALK VICTOR S133 805H
REG# P41029448

 

[Hill Creek Farm]

I have come up with the five bulls that I would use:
1. DR World Class 517 10H
2. PW Victor Boomer P606
3. KT Top Secret 1030
4. KCF Bennett 3008 G326
5. Feltons Meat Machine 442

Here is a great list of bull to use on those heifers. Look them up and see for yourself. :cboy:

 

[greenwillowherefords]

At least get the 517 semen for future reference.

 

[Hill Creek Farm]

I know that Jim Reed has five units of semen on 517 for 75.00/straw. I was going to buy it to use on a flush mating, but decided not to. Call or email Jim Reed. email address is [email protected]. I hope this helps. :cboy:

 

[El_Putzo]

I've talked to Jim Reed and I've considered all those bulls and many more. I like RF Genetic Phase's numbers but from the pics I've seen of him he lacks some muscling in the hind quarters to make him look proportional.

 

[Campground Cattle]

My heifers do not have great milk numbers. Here are their numbers.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C272722242E22&9=5E5D5E

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C27272223272E&9=5E5D5D

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C272722232024&9=5E5C5F

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C272722222526&9=5E5C5C


I do have another option I suppose. I could go ahead and buy the 517 semen and keep it in the tank. Then breed my current heifers to a sire not from the Feltons line, like PW Victor Boomer and save the 517 semen to use on future heifers out of Victor Boomer. I don't think it would be a good thing to breed them to World Class and keep heifers and then breed them back to their grandpa (517).

That sounds confusing but just might work. I'm afraid if I pass on the chance to get 517 semen now, I will pay out my nose for it later if it's even available at all. Maybe I'm a little to excited about using 517 but it seems as though he has made such an impression on the hereford breed that it would be a shame not to use him if I have the chance.

I would consider some of the low birth weight high milk bulls on the list not what is on the current ad of the month. You have what I would consider some high birth weight heifers. I would find the lowest BW/ and highest milk numbers Reed had. Like I said there are some great older bulls that have great numbers. You are looking for improvement right?

 

[El_Putzo]

You are looking for improvement right?

Isn't everybody?

I can only assume that the guys that are AIing to bulls with low WW and YW are trying to downsize their cattle, and the ones who are AIing to bulls with low Milk and CEM are not keeping any heifers. Is this correct for the most part?

I am trying to improve on every aspect of my cattle at this point as any decent heifer may be held over for a replacement or any bull sold as a yearling in the local market. I will probably not castrate any bull calves until weaning time when I will be able to tell a little more about how good of an animal they are.

That being said, I think I am leaning toward getting the 517 semen and holding it till later. I will use PW Victor Boomer this first go around then any "keeper" heifers will be bred back to 517 down the road. That gets me excited just thinking about it, a Victor Boomer daughter bred to 517!! I'm sure there are some calves out there with this background. If any of you have some, I'd like to here about them or see pics of them. It just sounds like an awsome cross. I think I would end up kicking myself later if I pass on the 517 straws because I will always wonder what I could have had.

 

[1848]

I would not hesitate to purchase the 517 semen, although I would probably not put him in heifers. I would take and use the semen in a flush and increase my chances of conceptions to him, or place him in good milking cows that I know will produce a good bull. That way, you can continue to inject the 517 bull and his high accuracies, into one of your better cow lines on the maternal side. PW Victor Boomer does not produce as light of calves as his EPD's would reflect. Braxton Giant seems to hold very true to his EPD's, and his calves are very acceptable. Going with "everything" EPD's does not always work, but it looks good on paper. I would carefully evaluate my program , the heifers, and the purpose for the resulting offspring and find a low BW, high accuracy bull to use.

 

[1848]

One more note. Remember Frank Felton basically had a closed herd with the exception of his bulls which he marketed very well. The Feltons line is sometimes best used like an outcross due to this fact, and is much of the reason his bulls did so well. None of his females were being released and this prevented the simular matings that Frank was capable of producing, but it did make his stacked genetics excell when placed in other programs with different genetic bases. So do you want to flood you bloodlines with 517 on both sides (ie World Class x 517) for the sake of high accuracy, or do you want excellerated growth through the heterosis of using 517 as an outcross.

 

[El_Putzo]

One more note. Remember Frank Felton basically had a closed herd with the exception of his bulls which he marketed very well. The Feltons line is sometimes best used like an outcross due to this fact, and is much of the reason his bulls did so well. None of his females were being released and this prevented the simular matings that Frank was capable of producing, but it did make his stacked genetics excell when placed in other programs with different genetic bases. So do you want to flood you bloodlines with 517 on both sides (ie World Class x 517) for the sake of high accuracy, or do you want excellerated growth through the heterosis of using 517 as an outcross.

To answer those last two questions..... yes and yes.

I think I would like to "flood the bloodlines" with Feltons to get some great maternal brood stock then when I get my herd built up, cross them up with lines like Victor and Remitall to get that extra poundage. I think the Feltons style bulls that come along here first should make just as good of bulls as when I finally get to cross with the other bloodlines.

I wasn't sure if that would be wise to breed my heifers to World Class and then put the offspring back on 517. Would that be too close to in-breeding? I have heard it's ok as long as you don't cross dad to daughter or mom to son, or brother to sister. As long as you keep one generation of separation it shouldn't hurt, is this right?

 

[El_Putzo]

I would not hesitate to purchase the 517 semen, although I would probably not put him in heifers. I would take and use the semen in a flush and increase my chances of conceptions to him, or place him in good milking cows that I know will produce a good bull. That way, you can continue to inject the 517 bull and his high accuracies, into one of your better cow lines on the maternal side.

How does flushing work? I've heard it's expensive.