LGodlove
Well-known member
Thanks for your answers, guys.
Another calf question . . .
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how is she doing, this evening :?:
DavisBeefmasters
Well-known member
If she is still doing okay and you want to cut down on some labor...
You can pick up a few packets of "Optimil Complete"... it also has a name of "Scour Ease"... it is made by Manna Pro and is a scour guard combined with milk replacer that did wonders for my little Orphan Annie calf this year it has antibiotics and neomycin all included to make the little gut feel better (no seperate electrolyte feedings vs. milk feedings a few hours later)... (I was silly enough to think that the milk replacer the local feed store had with soy as the 4th listed ingredient, would do just fine... WRONG... put her on Optimal for 2 feedings in lieu of milk replacer and she is now on ALL MILK milk replacer and Purina Calf Chow and diggin' it)...
I took the volume of powder that is called for to mix up 2 quarts but only filled the bottle between 2 to 3 pints per feeding as suggested by Alice... she'll be getting the nutrition without the volume of fluid (IF she is not dehydrated at this point)...
I did this with "Li'l Orphan Annie" and after 2 feedings of Optimal/Scour-Ease at 2 1/2 pints she is now sucking down 2 quarts twice a day of her milk replacer, plus licking fresh water, plus eating her calf chow, plus nibbling at some hay...
Remember that both tubing and sucking are the best way for the calf to absorb nutrition as it gets to the true stomach so keep on doing what you're doing (you'll get the hang of it).
Best of luck and keep us posted.
You can pick up a few packets of "Optimil Complete"... it also has a name of "Scour Ease"... it is made by Manna Pro and is a scour guard combined with milk replacer that did wonders for my little Orphan Annie calf this year it has antibiotics and neomycin all included to make the little gut feel better (no seperate electrolyte feedings vs. milk feedings a few hours later)... (I was silly enough to think that the milk replacer the local feed store had with soy as the 4th listed ingredient, would do just fine... WRONG... put her on Optimal for 2 feedings in lieu of milk replacer and she is now on ALL MILK milk replacer and Purina Calf Chow and diggin' it)...
I took the volume of powder that is called for to mix up 2 quarts but only filled the bottle between 2 to 3 pints per feeding as suggested by Alice... she'll be getting the nutrition without the volume of fluid (IF she is not dehydrated at this point)...
I did this with "Li'l Orphan Annie" and after 2 feedings of Optimal/Scour-Ease at 2 1/2 pints she is now sucking down 2 quarts twice a day of her milk replacer, plus licking fresh water, plus eating her calf chow, plus nibbling at some hay...
Remember that both tubing and sucking are the best way for the calf to absorb nutrition as it gets to the true stomach so keep on doing what you're doing (you'll get the hang of it).
Best of luck and keep us posted.
LGodlove
Well-known member
Davisbeefmaster,
Thanks for the tip.
She's not better, but she's not worse.
Her little cellmate :lol: has the scours now (began last night), though, so I'm having a ball treating the both of them now. At least he's still sucking his bottle, hopefully that will continue.
I woke up at midnight and gave her electolytes and a nice dose of pepto. Did it again this morning at 6 a.m., and gave her the third and last dose of sulfa and plan to give electrolytes and pepto again at noon. Her buddy will get the same treatment. He is on his second dose of sulfa, his 3rd will be tomorrow morning.
I cleaned their bed the best I could and cuddled them up with hay and have a heat lamp on them.
I know most of you have said to treat her more often (i.e. every three hours), but I feel this cause more stress on her and am doing it every 6 hours consistently throughout the day and night. I've been reading about consistency in calf management and tend to agree that this is very important because they get to expect you to be there then and until they are of weaning age, this is how I feed them.
My other four who are on the other side of the pen (one is still on the bottle), the three weaned almost 8 week olds will wait at their trough for the grain now at the expected time and I bottle feed the five week old right there in the pen with them with the weaned boys and have no problems with them even attempting to steal his bottle. They ignore him and eat their grain and when he is done sucking, I give him grain too.
Thanks for the tip.
She's not better, but she's not worse.
Her little cellmate :lol: has the scours now (began last night), though, so I'm having a ball treating the both of them now. At least he's still sucking his bottle, hopefully that will continue.
I woke up at midnight and gave her electolytes and a nice dose of pepto. Did it again this morning at 6 a.m., and gave her the third and last dose of sulfa and plan to give electrolytes and pepto again at noon. Her buddy will get the same treatment. He is on his second dose of sulfa, his 3rd will be tomorrow morning.
I cleaned their bed the best I could and cuddled them up with hay and have a heat lamp on them.
I know most of you have said to treat her more often (i.e. every three hours), but I feel this cause more stress on her and am doing it every 6 hours consistently throughout the day and night. I've been reading about consistency in calf management and tend to agree that this is very important because they get to expect you to be there then and until they are of weaning age, this is how I feed them.
My other four who are on the other side of the pen (one is still on the bottle), the three weaned almost 8 week olds will wait at their trough for the grain now at the expected time and I bottle feed the five week old right there in the pen with them with the weaned boys and have no problems with them even attempting to steal his bottle. They ignore him and eat their grain and when he is done sucking, I give him grain too.
LGodlove
Well-known member
Ok, ok, I confess, I listened to the more experienced calf-raisers here--when I went out to check on her and saw again how bad she was scouring, I went ahead and tubed her with another 3 pints electrolyte and gave her more pepto.
I'm going to do this every 4 hours, so she gets it again at 3 p.m. and then I will give her some milk at 7 p.m.
I suppose I'll be losing more sleep tonight, since I'll also be giving her electrolytes at 11 p.m. and 3 p.m.
It pays to be obsessive/compulsive in this business.
I'm going to do this every 4 hours, so she gets it again at 3 p.m. and then I will give her some milk at 7 p.m.
I suppose I'll be losing more sleep tonight, since I'll also be giving her electrolytes at 11 p.m. and 3 p.m.
It pays to be obsessive/compulsive in this business.
DavisBeefmasters
Well-known member
Alice":12v3g0t4 said:I didn't now about Optimil Complete...thanks for the heads up!
Also, getting the nutrition without the volume...I've found that makes a world of difference.
Alice
No problem -- I didn't even think about mixing the right amount of powder with less liquid until you helped me on my other post... and you are correct, it worked like a champ for us...
...and just so you know...
...the little gal also got probios after her scour treatment was complete and when she moved onto the milk replacer that's all milk... I forgot to mention that above
Alice --> for you if the sun is out (it was foggy this morning) I will take a picture of little girl you helped me work with (and may need your help again since she's the whopping 14 days old)
You might want to lay off the milk all together for 24 to 48 hours and just give the electrolytes (mixed as directed on package) then start with a small quantity of milk again on day two or three. Sometimes that will work. I'd quit giving pepto - that isn't even very good for humans.
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
Hippie Rancher":1qnr9vs6 said:
You're my hero!! Wasn't going to say anything about it myself. If I take pepto, it comes right back up, immediately. That stuff makes me dog sick. Aint no way I'd give it to an animal.
DavisBeefmasters":2h7u4p35 said:Alice":2h7u4p35 said:I didn't now about Optimil Complete...thanks for the heads up!
Also, getting the nutrition without the volume...I've found that makes a world of difference.
Alice
No problem -- I didn't even think about mixing the right amount of powder with less liquid until you helped me on my other post... and you are correct, it worked like a champ for us...
...and just so you know...
...the little gal also got probios after her scour treatment was complete and when she moved onto the milk replacer that's all milk... I forgot to mention that above
Alice --> for you if the sun is out (it was foggy this morning) I will take a picture of little girl you helped me work with (and may need your help again since she's the whopping 14 days old)
If she's 14 days old and not scouring and not wheezing and not gurling, you are most likely over the hump...hallelujia!
And yes, I would love to see the picture...
Alice
LGodlove
Well-known member
Today I've been giving her electrolytes at: 6am, 11am, 4pm, and I will give more at 9pm (check her, then give at 2am and start her on 3 pints milk at 7am. Does this sound reasonable? I know a 100 pound dehydrated calf needs at least 10 pounds of electrolytes to just catch up. I'm guessing her to be between 65-70lbs, so that means I will need 7lbs to do that. One gallon of fluids weighs about 8lbs, according to what I've read, and I've seen her peeing today, but she's weak.
I stopped the pepto at 11am. She had her last milk at 6pm yesterday, so I will need to give her milk at least by 6pm tomorrow, as that will be the end of the 48 hrs. Hopefully she will be hydrated by then. I placed in a warm environment, it's supposed to be around 18 degrees here tonight and if I let her out in the shed, I don't think she'll be breathing come tomorrow. I will give her all the best I can.
If not, then I can chock another one up to buying another sale barn calf that did not get enough--or maybe any--colostrum.
I stopped the pepto at 11am. She had her last milk at 6pm yesterday, so I will need to give her milk at least by 6pm tomorrow, as that will be the end of the 48 hrs. Hopefully she will be hydrated by then. I placed in a warm environment, it's supposed to be around 18 degrees here tonight and if I let her out in the shed, I don't think she'll be breathing come tomorrow. I will give her all the best I can.
If not, then I can chock another one up to buying another sale barn calf that did not get enough--or maybe any--colostrum.
LGodlove":1aeddwlk said:
The lack of colstrum gets a lot of ink on these boards, but not every calf that has a sickness can be blamed on it. Chill, stress, exposure to other pathegins that no immunity was passed, poor managment, over feeding, etc.. There are tons of reasons calves get sick.
dun":345n1xo6 said:
And conversely plenty make it without ever getting any. I've sure raised a few.
rockridgecattle
Well-known member
coming into this thread on the last page has it's disadvantages but i want to comment on the colostrum thing being mentioned.
Dun you are right, not every sickness is cause by lack of colostrum but it can be traced back to lack of it...
The lack of colostrum plays a very important role.
1. a calf is born with zero zilch nothing for immunity. It has no way of fighting any infection from the moment it hits the ground.
that would be in human terms like coming in contact with a virus or bacteria that is totally foreign to us with no immunity to fight it with. We become infected and the body has to make antibodies to fight the infection which brings me to point 2
2. when the body gets stressed by sickness and has no way to fight, the body has to make antibodies. By the time correct antibodies are created, there is already millions of pathagens in the system. Now the system has to go into overdrive and manufacture enough antibodies to fight the pathagens.
If a calf is given the proper anti bodies at the correct time from birth it raises the immunity immediately by the passive transfer from the dam to the calf.
Then if the calf comes into contact with an pathagen it has the ability to fight it. Thus less stress on the system of the calf enabling it to fight again if need be.
Ask your self these simple questions
Why is that calf at the sale barn?
Why is that calf not on it's momma?
More than likely there was a problem between the two.
Calf did not bond with momma...lack of colostrum
Momma sick, momma died...lack of colostrum
Momma matistis...lack of colostrum
Momma nuts and got shipped or .22...not eager to work with her and the calf, lack of colostrum
So
the calf gets shipped, mixed with how many other animals which might be carriers to IBR BVD, the commom cold, scours, pnemonia, and any numerous antigens.
Results
in a calf with a compromised immune system from birth, fighting all known and unknow pathegens, stressed from shipping and no mother to look after...how would our immune systems hold up to half of that in human life?
Rabbit trail i know but any sickness in a calf can be traced back to lack of colostrum whether we want to admit it or not.
Poor management is a cause of lack of colostrum
exposure to pathegens and unable to fight is a cause of lack of colostrum
Fighting chill is a management issue...relates to lack of colostrum...if it had enough it's body would be able to fight any sickness derived from this stress
over feeding well is a management issue...get with the program
yes there are tonnes of reasons but they all go back to...management of the cow to produce enough healthy colostrum and calf recieving it in a timely fashion, to minimize and reduce herd heath stress
End of the book
Dun you are right, not every sickness is cause by lack of colostrum but it can be traced back to lack of it...
The lack of colostrum plays a very important role.
1. a calf is born with zero zilch nothing for immunity. It has no way of fighting any infection from the moment it hits the ground.
that would be in human terms like coming in contact with a virus or bacteria that is totally foreign to us with no immunity to fight it with. We become infected and the body has to make antibodies to fight the infection which brings me to point 2
2. when the body gets stressed by sickness and has no way to fight, the body has to make antibodies. By the time correct antibodies are created, there is already millions of pathagens in the system. Now the system has to go into overdrive and manufacture enough antibodies to fight the pathagens.
If a calf is given the proper anti bodies at the correct time from birth it raises the immunity immediately by the passive transfer from the dam to the calf.
Then if the calf comes into contact with an pathagen it has the ability to fight it. Thus less stress on the system of the calf enabling it to fight again if need be.
Ask your self these simple questions
Why is that calf at the sale barn?
Why is that calf not on it's momma?
More than likely there was a problem between the two.
Calf did not bond with momma...lack of colostrum
Momma sick, momma died...lack of colostrum
Momma matistis...lack of colostrum
Momma nuts and got shipped or .22...not eager to work with her and the calf, lack of colostrum
So
the calf gets shipped, mixed with how many other animals which might be carriers to IBR BVD, the commom cold, scours, pnemonia, and any numerous antigens.
Results
in a calf with a compromised immune system from birth, fighting all known and unknow pathegens, stressed from shipping and no mother to look after...how would our immune systems hold up to half of that in human life?
Rabbit trail i know but any sickness in a calf can be traced back to lack of colostrum whether we want to admit it or not.
Poor management is a cause of lack of colostrum
exposure to pathegens and unable to fight is a cause of lack of colostrum
Fighting chill is a management issue...relates to lack of colostrum...if it had enough it's body would be able to fight any sickness derived from this stress
over feeding well is a management issue...get with the program
yes there are tonnes of reasons but they all go back to...management of the cow to produce enough healthy colostrum and calf recieving it in a timely fashion, to minimize and reduce herd heath stress
End of the book
rockridgecattle":3gdlcr4v said:
You got way too carried away. I have seen calves that had gotten adequate good quality colostrum get sick, apparently you haven't. Good for you. The poor managment doesn;t alwasy pertain to the seller.
LGodlove
Well-known member
Rockridge,
I agree with you. If I would have gotten the calf off an individual instead of the sale barn, much of the bacteria/germs/stress could be avoided. I plan to look into finding a source for buying from an individual come spring when I'm ready to take on more.
Right not, I'm concentrating on the last two I bought and giving them the best I can.
I want to ask you and Dun what you can give these calves to get them pooping solid again. Everyone said to nix the pepto, but I'm using it because if I don't get them solid again, they dehydrate more and more. The little lady is peeing and so is my fella. I had to bring him in with her this morning because it's a balmy 15 degrees here and he was shivering pretty good and with being sick, I'm concerned he can't hold up under the cold. I hate doing this, but hate it worse if he kicks the bucket on me for not.
I agree with you. If I would have gotten the calf off an individual instead of the sale barn, much of the bacteria/germs/stress could be avoided. I plan to look into finding a source for buying from an individual come spring when I'm ready to take on more.
Right not, I'm concentrating on the last two I bought and giving them the best I can.
I want to ask you and Dun what you can give these calves to get them pooping solid again. Everyone said to nix the pepto, but I'm using it because if I don't get them solid again, they dehydrate more and more. The little lady is peeing and so is my fella. I had to bring him in with her this morning because it's a balmy 15 degrees here and he was shivering pretty good and with being sick, I'm concerned he can't hold up under the cold. I hate doing this, but hate it worse if he kicks the bucket on me for not.
LGodlove":1fof3dxs said:
We use a pink tablet that's sulfa somthing, Don;t have the label on the package anymore. Might be SMZ or some such. It was mentioned by someone a short time ago and I didn;t get around to relabeling the jar. We've also used pepto in the past. We haven;t raised large numbers of calves in years so haven;t had to deal much with scours toher then milk scours in calves from a couple of the cows. Those get a tablet once and clear right up.
rockridgecattle
Well-known member
Dun,
there is something else to consider. The stress from birthing. This stress has a contibuting factor on the absorbtion rate of the immuglobbulins from the colostrum.
Pfizer did a study as i am sure other drug manufatures did.
2 calves.
calf A easy birth no problems
calf b hard birth stress etc
calf a and b bothgot the exact same colostrum, amount, antibodies, the same...how they did that is well...
calf a
less sickness. blood work came back lots of anti boies
calf
more sickness blood work came back not as much antibodies
theroy...stress has an impact on the absorbtion of colostrum.
again a management issue
we have had sickness, but all sickness has been a management issue
when it comes to a calf being sold at the auction barn the management pertains to the seller. the buyer management can not contol the birth or the colostrum intake or the stress of calf not bonding. The buyer management pertains to feeding correctly the bought calf, the vaccinations and raising the bought animal.
Watch and observe next calving season. Calves with stressful births, seem more prone to sickness, calves with timely colostrum and stress free birth less prone to sickness.
We have had sick calves and readily admit it boils down to management of the calves/cows at birth, timely ingestion of colsotrum and a a pile of luck...good and bad
there is something else to consider. The stress from birthing. This stress has a contibuting factor on the absorbtion rate of the immuglobbulins from the colostrum.
Pfizer did a study as i am sure other drug manufatures did.
2 calves.
calf A easy birth no problems
calf b hard birth stress etc
calf a and b bothgot the exact same colostrum, amount, antibodies, the same...how they did that is well...
calf a
less sickness. blood work came back lots of anti boies
calf
more sickness blood work came back not as much antibodies
theroy...stress has an impact on the absorbtion of colostrum.
again a management issue
we have had sickness, but all sickness has been a management issue
when it comes to a calf being sold at the auction barn the management pertains to the seller. the buyer management can not contol the birth or the colostrum intake or the stress of calf not bonding. The buyer management pertains to feeding correctly the bought calf, the vaccinations and raising the bought animal.
Watch and observe next calving season. Calves with stressful births, seem more prone to sickness, calves with timely colostrum and stress free birth less prone to sickness.
We have had sick calves and readily admit it boils down to management of the calves/cows at birth, timely ingestion of colsotrum and a a pile of luck...good and bad
rockridgecattle
Well-known member
LGodlove i will anwer your question in a bit right now husband is finally ready for me to be the cow dentist...a story i am sure...
