Angus Pathfinder questions?

[southernultrablack]

I was looking through the 2018 pathfinder report and saw a bull that I used on there. Now this bull has an absolutely atrocious CEM EPD (-3)and it is .82 accurate. Out of his eligible daughters, 17% made pathfinder. If his daughters are so hard calving, how are they making pathfinder status? To be fair he only had 35 eligible daughters.

 

[southernultrablack]

Bumping this up
Anybody care to take a stab at it?

 

[Ebenezer]

Somebody pulling the calves and they grow good? Don't know. 17% is probably about average on % daughters and some go lower. I have never sensed a genetic relationship there.

 

[jscunn]

Could just DNA terrible for this trait, doesnt mean it is true..

 

[CSM]

Low CEM you have two types. One is a large bw and a high yearling weight, true hard calving. The others will be a low bw and low yearling weight. This bulls daughters will need a little more time before they are bred, they need a calving ease bull and they will be fine. I am using a bull on heifers with very high CE and very low CEM. If the daughters need a few more months before breeding them I will move them from fall to spring. This bull has a reputation for producing cows that milk, good feet, disposition, just a little low on growth.

 

[jscunn]

So CSM what do you get if you stack generations (3) of bulls like you are talking about? Cows that breed at 2 yrs and cant have a 55lb calf? I think you are mistaken, high bw, large yw heifers are normally bigger framed which comes with a bigger pelvis and can have bigger calves than the bulls you are discussing. I would rather have the heifer you avoid, versus the one you keep.

 

[elkwc]

So CSM what do you get if you stack generations (3) of bulls like you are talking about? Cows that breed at 2 yrs and cant have a 55lb calf? I think you are mistaken, high bw, large yw heifers are normally bigger framed which comes with a bigger pelvis and can have bigger calves than the bulls you are discussing. I would rather have the heifer you avoid, versus the one you keep.

JS I agree with you. We have used and continue to use bulls with BW's in mid to upper 80's. I have bid on bulls with a BW in the low 90's. Knock on wood we haven't had any calving issues. I feel management has as much to do with it as anything else. We try not to calve any heifer before 24 months of age. I pay no attention to the CE numbers. I look at actual data. It has worked well for us.

 

[CSM]

I wouldn't want to stack this low CEM either but we are talking about one time, or I was. A lot of these heifers will be fine to calve at 24 months but if they need a little time no big deal. I'm not interested in the largest cows I can develop.
Saw some mature cows that sold two years ago after a ranchers death, the ones from this bull were at the top and several have became embryo donors. That second calf isn't a problem.
If I mess up it's not the first time.

 

[jscunn]

Elkwc,
I am with you 100% on actual data, I don't care what the EPD says he is, if he didn't do it himself, I aint interested. I think that a 2yr old raising her first calf, still trying to mature herself, and losing her baby teeth has a much harder trek than a 15 month old heifer trying to just get bred the first time, which why I want them to calve as close to 24 months as possible or even 22 months for the later born heifers.
I always look for the next generation to "correct" the weakness of the previous. example too many low BW sires in a row, then the next sire would be at least breed average for BW.

 

[Son of Butch]

Bumping this up
Anybody care to take a stab at it?

6 of his first 35 eligible daughters made pathfinder.
In a small sample size cherry picking or possible owner influence can never be overlooked.
But genetics are a funny thing.

Astronaut a popular Holstein bull in the 1970s (1st bull to sell over 1 million units of semen)
he threw 2 types of daughters, when they were good they were so far above average to great that
everyone loved him. But when they were bad, they were hands down the worst in the herd.
He ran hot or cold and didn't seem to have any middle ground... cull the poor ones early and you
could build a heck of a good herd with an oddball like him.

cem -3 accuracy .82
Highly recommend pelvic scoring his daughters and cull them hard accordingly and you could be
very happy with him.