Angus guys

[True Grit Farms]

Mr. Danny might disagree with you Branded. .http://jmsvictordomino.com

 

[CattleMan1920]

Mr. Danny might disagree with you Branded. .http://jmsvictordomino.com

I'm not talking about Hereford, I'm talking about cattle whose origin is anyone's guess. Those are really nice cattle from what I can see on your site. Do you work with any of Boyd's genetics?

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

If I take a picture with my phone, can someone post it for me if I send it to them?

 

[Ebenezer]

Bottom line:

The fallacy is that people think that the use of a high dollar bull, a bull from XYZ ranch, a bull that Big Shot Joe uses, a bull with a pedigree that impresses, a bull that had a preplanned and phony price at the sale or a bull that has phenomenal individual data is a better bull. The EPDs of an animal, until there is very high accuracy, is the average of what to expect rather than the actual to expect.

I hear this frequently in my area. Someone told me a while back "wouldn't give you a nickel for those "fancy" AI bulls" he called the people who sell and use them "Semen Jockeys" It was painful listening to him describe the finer points of breeding cattle. He was all about "eye-balling" it.

Here's how it really is....If I were to tell a serious commercial cattleman that I had completely "NO NAME" bulls from a breeding strategy that my great grandpappy handed down to me, they would turn and leave my operation faster than they arrived. "Trust me" doesn't cut it these days. What DOES cut it is using sires from HIGHLY PROVEN PROGRAMS like SAV, Baldridge, Connealy, etc. When you tell a commercial cattleman that you have a "homegrown special", untested, and you barely have a clue about his EPD's and he has not been tested for recessives, you just know in your gut that he's a "good one"....that is total bull sh.....t! I know of a commercial producer in the area that has experienced above average birth defects in his cattle this year. Hmmm....do you think it might have been the "bargain bulls" he used? Stockyard specials! $1200 bulls. One guy told me that he judges a good bull by how big his neck is, are you kidding me! Seriously, he said that!

I'm no self-proclaimed expert in the cattle business, I'm learning like everyone else, but I can tell you that in my experience, the cattle that I have on the ground from AI are better from a phenotype AND DNA tested EPD standpoint than what I could breed myself using a "homegrown bull". With that said I totally understand when a commercial producer needs to get 200-300 females settled that they cannot all be AI, you have to go with herd bulls. But shouldn't those herd bulls be of very high quality, at least sons of top AI sires?

I can go on until I am blue in the face. People in my area, not all of them, but a lot, as I have said before, could care less about what a bull's pedigree or numbers say. if he can settle em that's all that matters. People reading this may say "don't they care about improving their herd?" Nope! they just want four legs that can go through the stockyards at some point in time and will take whatever the market gives them, which is usually not much. That's not a long-term strategy for remaining in the cattle business as the race for higher quality grading pushes on. Just my opinion folks!

Yes. Motion, commotion and promotion takes a lot of words.

 

[CattleMan1920]

As does explaining to oneself, as a cattleman why you can’t break even, much less make a profit. Which is the pickle a lot of producers are finding themselves in. If the dairy business wasn’t a fair warning, nothing will be.

 

[True Grit Farms]

I figured it out 5 years ago that when you have to feed daily your working for your cows. I want cows that work for me. Hopefully this is the year that the cows get to go 3 to 4 weeks without ever being checked.

 

[Bright Raven]

Bottom line:

The fallacy is that people think that the use of a high dollar bull, a bull from XYZ ranch, a bull that Big Shot Joe uses, a bull with a pedigree that impresses, a bull that had a preplanned and phony price at the sale or a bull that has phenomenal individual data is a better bull. The EPDs of an animal, until there is very high accuracy, is the average of what to expect rather than the actual to expect.

I hear this frequently in my area. Someone told me a while back "wouldn't give you a nickel for those "fancy" AI bulls" he called the people who sell and use them "Semen Jockeys" It was painful listening to him describe the finer points of breeding cattle. He was all about "eye-balling" it.

Here's how it really is....If I were to tell a serious commercial cattleman that I had completely "NO NAME" bulls from a breeding strategy that my great grandpappy handed down to me, they would turn and leave my operation faster than they arrived. "Trust me" doesn't cut it these days. What DOES cut it is using sires from HIGHLY PROVEN PROGRAMS like SAV, Baldridge, Connealy, etc. When you tell a commercial cattleman that you have a "homegrown special", untested, and you barely have a clue about his EPD's and he has not been tested for recessives, you just know in your gut that he's a "good one"....that is total bull sh.....t! I know of a commercial producer in the area that has experienced above average birth defects in his cattle this year. Hmmm....do you think it might have been the "bargain bulls" he used? Stockyard specials! $1200 bulls. One guy told me that he judges a good bull by how big his neck is, are you kidding me! Seriously, he said that!

I'm no self-proclaimed expert in the cattle business, I'm learning like everyone else, but I can tell you that in my experience, the cattle that I have on the ground from AI are better from a phenotype AND DNA tested EPD standpoint than what I could breed myself using a "homegrown bull". With that said I totally understand when a commercial producer needs to get 200-300 females settled that they cannot all be AI, you have to go with herd bulls. But shouldn't those herd bulls be of very high quality, at least sons of top AI sires?

I can go on until I am blue in the face. People in my area, not all of them, but a lot, as I have said before, could care less about what a bull's pedigree or numbers say. if he can settle em that's all that matters. People reading this may say "don't they care about improving their herd?" Nope! they just want four legs that can go through the stockyards at some point in time and will take whatever the market gives them, which is usually not much. That's not a long-term strategy for remaining in the cattle business as the race for higher quality grading pushes on. Just my opinion folks!

James, I agree and your logic is sound.

Ebenezer focuses on how the markets operate. He laments the promotions and marketing practices. Even if his complaints about the marketing practices are valid, that is not the substance of the issue! As you said, Who cares!

The substance of the issue is the quality of the genetics and how do you move your operation FORWARD. Moving it forward means producing bulls and heifers that YOUR market demands. The markets are diverse. As you say, if you want to sell $1200 to $1500 bulls to producers who only want four legs on the ground, then you don't need to use AI bulls. But if you want to sell bulls in Sales like THE BULLS OF THE BLUEGRASS, they better all be bulls out of a straw.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I agree with Ebenezer when it comes to the bulls....t artists, they are annoying and misleading, and I also agree with you, AI sons are without a doubt easier to sell. Sons from a no name bull might be good overall bulls and may perform, but they are hard to sell. If I had 30 sons of Basin Payweight 1682 that were 16 months old, semen tested, and ready for service, they would be a breeze to sell. Thirty sons out of random homegrown bulls, uh, not so easy, and definitely not as profitable.

 

[gizmom]

We had a herd sire Sinclair Rito 9R9 unfortunately deceased, but when customers came and looked at the bulls they would tell us they wanted an AI sired bull. Once they saw the calves they usually had us load their trailer with a 9R9 son. As a seedstock breeder we try to breed the best animal we can to meet our customers needs. We always need to ask questions, that will help us understand what type of bull will work best in that customers operation. Are they planning to retain heifers? When do they market at weaning or do the also background their calves? Do they retain ownership through the feedyard? Knowing what your customer needs in a bull a breeder should know their own genetics enough to let the customer know which bulls should work in their program. Also as a seedstock producer you better be ready to use a knife or a band! Just because a calf is out of your favorite cow and the hottest bull on the planet doesn’t guarantee he will be good enough to stay in the bull pen. I also see folks that tend to get farm blind get out look at other operations. EB makes some good points, some I agree with some I don’t not saying he is wrong just that there is more than one way to skin a cat. He and I have discussed AI use in the past and I certainly agree with him in that you can breed using your own bulls out of superior cows and have far better bulls than you can find in AI studs. People are always talking this hot AI bull or that hot AI bull. How often looking at Schaff genetics does Kelly bring in outside genetics. He has mastered stacking genetics and making them work. Isn’t he doing what EB is talking about, the flip side is Kelly is also a master at marketing, but if the cattle weren’t working the marketing wouldn’t either. You don’t get repeat buyers if your product fails. Bottom line this is a business so you best be looking to make your customer happy. Finally I have found some purebred breeders that tend to look down on the commercial operator, which is just stupid. Most commercial Cattlemen can teach you something if you take the time to listen. Just one old ladies observation.

Gizmom

 

[CattleMan1920]

I figured it out 5 years ago that when you have to feed daily your working for your cows. I want cows that work for me. Hopefully this is the year that the cows get to go 3 to 4 weeks without ever being checked.

Then I have a bull for you. Top 1% for DMI (dry matter intake, top 4% for $EN. This guy can just about live on air and water alone, LOL! His momma sure could . He is also top 3% for HP (heifer pregnancy). Most of our herd score high on DMI and $EN. A sire like this can help you develop a highly efficient group of fertile daughters, just saying....

He is not a son of an AI sire but he’s nice!

https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl. ... pct=t&gt=1

 

[CattleMan1920]

We had a herd sire Sinclair Rito 9R9 unfortunately deceased, but when customers came and looked at the bulls they would tell us they wanted an AI sired bull. Once they saw the calves they usually had us load their trailer with a 9R9 son. As a seedstock breeder we try to breed the best animal we can to meet our customers needs. We always need to ask questions, that will help us understand what type of bull will work best in that customers operation. Are they planning to retain heifers? When do they market at weaning or do the also background their calves? Do they retain ownership through the feedyard? Knowing what your customer needs in a bull a breeder should know their own genetics enough to let the customer know which bulls should work in their program. Also as a seedstock producer you better be ready to use a knife or a band! Just because a calf is out of your favorite cow and the hottest bull on the planet doesn’t guarantee he will be good enough to stay in the bull pen. I also see folks that tend to get farm blind get out look at other operations. EB makes some good points, some I agree with some I don’t not saying he is wrong just that there is more than one way to skin a cat. He and I have discussed AI use in the past and I certainly agree with him in that you can breed using your own bulls out of superior cows and have far better bulls than you can find in AI studs. People are always talking this hot AI bull or that hot AI bull. How often looking at Schaff genetics does Kelly bring in outside genetics. He has mastered stacking genetics and making them work. Isn’t he doing what EB is talking about, the flip side is Kelly is also a master at marketing, but if the cattle weren’t working the marketing wouldn’t either. You don’t get repeat buyers if your product fails. Bottom line this is a business so you best be looking to make your customer happy. Finally I have found some purebred breeders that tend to look down on the commercial operator, which is just stupid. Most commercial Cattlemen can teach you something if you take the time to listen. Just one old ladies observation.

Gizmom

Good points. As I’ve said before, our bulls that were from a herd sire have been good bulls, they have performed well for our clients, I just prefer AI whenever possible. As for Schaff, I see it like this, I don’t have their resources or knowledge, but for $40-50 a straw I can have it instantly, at least on the sire side. They know more about the cattle than I do, I’d be kidding myself if I thought I could produce animals at their level, at least for now. They have the benefit of time, which is a great asset in herd development. Lastly, if I meet a commercial producer that is serious, then I’m more than willing to listen and learn, that’s one reason why I’m on this board, to learn. I see the registered/commercial relationship as a symbiotic one. We both need each other. I have total respect for the commercial producer that runs a top notch operation.

 

[Ebenezer]

As does explaining to oneself, as a cattleman why you can’t break even, much less make a profit. Which is the pickle a lot of producers are finding themselves in. If the dairy business wasn’t a fair warning, nothing will be.

If the dairy business wasn’t a fair warning, nothing will be.

apples and oranges. Poor logic here.

 

[Son of Butch]

As does explaining to oneself, as a cattleman why you can’t break even, much less make a profit. Which is the pickle a lot of producers are finding themselves in. If the dairy business wasn’t a fair warning, nothing will be.

If the dairy business wasn’t a fair warning, nothing will be.

apples and oranges. Poor logic here.

Look at the number of units of dairy semen sold vs units of beef semen.
Going by the logic of look at what has happened to dairy as a warning = beef guys throw away all your semen and quit
ETs before it's too late. :)

 

[Bovine breeder]

As does explaining to oneself, as a cattleman why you can’t break even, much less make a profit. Which is the pickle a lot of producers are finding themselves in. If the dairy business wasn’t a fair warning, nothing will be.

If the dairy business wasn’t a fair warning, nothing will be.

apples and oranges. Poor logic here.

Look at the number of units of dairy semen sold vs units of beef semen.
Going by the logic of look at what has happened to dairy as a warning = beef guys throw away all your semen and quit
ETs before it's too late. :)

SOB - I know you’re just having fun. But on a serious note, it would be very interesting to know what % of dairy operations utilized no AI in 1968, 78, 88, 98, 08, to 2018. That would be a more telling piece of information.

Edited to add. Or what % of cows were bred AI per dairy farm, on average, over those same years.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Poor logic? Where I am located dairy was king, until it wasn’t, then people seemed trapped, they could not figure out how to adapt and finally sold their farms and threw in the towel. As for beef producers, I think that if you are stuck on old ways and old ideas, and you are not adapting to current societal trends towards beef consumption then you are headed for a train wreck. People are talking around here about how bad the cattle market is, but when you look at the cattle they are describing they leave much to be desired. If those same people were AI’ng as much as possible and trying to improve their herds constantly they would most likely be singing a different tune. If you don’t like Angus, that’s ok by me, how about Hereford, or better yet Shorthorns? However you decide to go in this business, it’s the quality of product that matters, and I assure you Peter Luger’s or Delmonico’s in NYC aren’t getting their beef from cattle that are coming out of the bargain bin at the stockyards. The race to the bottom is over, now it’s a race to the top in my opinion and AI is the fastest and most efficient way to make that happen.

 

[CattleMan1920]

While this video features dairy cows, it speaks volumes about forward thinking. I would suggest you all watch this.

https://youtu.be/GafZSH2GztQ

 

[Bright Raven]

Poor logic? Where I am located dairy was king, until it wasn’t, then people seemed trapped, they could not figure out how to adapt and finally sold their farms and threw in the towel. As for beef producers, I think that if you are stuck on old ways and old ideas, and you are not adapting to current societal trends towards beef consumption then you are headed for a train wreck. People are talking around here about how bad the cattle market is, but when you look at the cattle they are describing they leave much to be desired. If those same people were AI’ng as much as possible and trying to improve their herds constantly they would most likely be singing a different tune. If you don’t like Angus, that’s ok by me, how about Hereford, or better yet Shorthorns? However you decide to go in this business, it’s the quality of product that matters, and I assure you Peter Luger’s or Delmonico’s in NYC aren’t getting their beef from cattle that are coming out of the bargain bin at the stockyards. The race to the bottom is over, now it’s a race to the top in my opinion and AI is the fastest and most efficient way to make that happen.

Don't forget ET. If I were younger and starting with one of the mainstream beef breeds, I would get a group of recipients and put the best embryos in them that I could find. Take note of what Gizmom said in one of her posts. She was congratulated on the breeding of her walking bull. Saying he threw as good or better calves than AI. Turns out, it was not her breeding, he was an embryo.

 

[Son of Butch]

By 1968 our Holstein herd was 100% AI and I would estimate at least 1/2 of our neighbor's were also 100% A.I. and it
continued to grow rapidly from there. A.I. destroyed bull sales for most registered purebred dairy farmers.
Sure some farms sold a couple high priced bulls each year to bull studs, but large supply of available breeding bulls
dropped the prices for natural service sires to maybe a 25% premium over slaughter price for those that did sell.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Totally agree! I definitely will be moving into ET soon, not too many techs around here that can do it successfully. My goal for 2020 is to do 20-25 ET’s. For now however it’s AI.

 

[Son of Butch]

LOL - Y'all need to take some courses in economics if you think increasing supply increases demand.
National 40% increase per cow in milk production didn't increase milk prices it lowered it.
Corn average going from 130 bushels an acre to 182 bushels doesn't increase corn prices it keeps the prices low.
Do you think increasing beef supply by using A.I. to increase ww from 520 lbs to 620 lbs will increase beef prices?
Demand increases supply not the other way around.