Angus Expert Question #2

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Air gator

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Angus Expert Q #2 You are being called as an expert witness on Angus bulls.
You may only answer the question. You may not ask any questions.
Question #2 : Which is the best Schaff Angus(SAV) bull available today?
You must explain your answer.
Only contemporary bulls. Bulls with grandsons with A.I. companies would not be
eligible. (For example, SAV Final Answer would NOT be eligible).
 

Ky hills

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I agree with TT, Final Answer is a good bull, and at the top of my list for Schaff bulls. Technically, he may still be on an AI roster, there is a clone called Final Answer II. The only other direct experience with Schaff bulls, that I have is with Bismarck, I liked him from the standpoint of calving ease, and pretty good growth in the calves.
 

TennesseeTuxedo

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Ky hills":2eaa3th3 said:
I agree with TT, Final Answer is a good bull, and at the top of my list for Schaff bulls. Technically, he may still be on an AI roster, there is a clone called Final Answer II. The only other direct experience with Schaff bulls, that I have is with Bismarck, I liked him from the standpoint of calving ease, and pretty good growth in the calves.

Were running a Bismarck son and he's an outstanding bull.
 

Lazy M

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I like bruiser. Impressed with his calves and he seems to have much to offer: small birth weights, quick growth, good temperament.. Will be able to tell how his daughters perform this time next year
 

cow pollinater

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Bruiser. There are very, very few bulls that can match his feed efficiency data and that is an area where angus is severely lacking. Not only does he knock that out of the park but he is fairly balanced in everything else. They grow but you can keep the daughters. Very versatile bull that works in lots of different situations.
Brilliance might be my second choice. similar to bruiser(half brother) in feed efficiency and fairly balanced without the growth. He works in show herds as well as he does commercial herds.
 
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Air gator

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Does Bruiser have enough frame? I have some heifers that I think are a little short. Do you need to breed him to cows with some frame?
 

cow pollinater

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Depends on how you look at it. If you want them to grow he'll work. If you want frame then he's not the best choice. People breed for frame assuming that it means growth. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as people have selected for both long enough that sometimes they do go hand in hand. Personally I don't see the point in selecting for more frame.
 
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Air gator

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Actually, there was a post recently about a market report stating that buyers didn't want early finishing cattle...I think that is how it was phrased. It doesn't make sense to me that you would essentially get docked for steers that finish early.
 

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Gizmos
It was on another thread that a -8 CEM is almost a genetic defect, and will kill more cattle than any defect! Your thoughts.
That number doesnt bother me at all, id guess Resource should have 4yr olds out there. Do you have any in production?
 

cow pollinater

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bse":18dunhbw said:
Gizmos
It was on another thread that a -8 CEM is almost a genetic defect, and will kill more cattle than any defect! Your thoughts.
That number doesnt bother me at all, id guess Resource should have 4yr olds out there. Do you have any in production?
You'd probably never see a problem breeding purebreds to him but if you sell that kind of genetics into a herd that uses heterosis and calves on range that is a cow killing number and the goal of breeding purebreds is to make cattle for the other guy to use so he shouldn't be in purebred herds either.
 

W.B.

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I agree, more apt to be a problem in the northern US where birth weights are a bit heavier. There are enough daughters in production that should have improved his ce maternal number by now if it was going to happen. Sometimes going back to the old bloodlines brings back old problems.
 

gizmom

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We have three daughters in production all calved unassisted all bred back first service AI. Calves out of these three heifers averaged 70#. A first calf heifer should be able to calve a 70 pound calf. I am on my phone so don't have actual birth weights in front of me. I think we need to keep some birthweight in the cattle. It goes back to moderation I believe you can breed low birth weight for to long and find you have cows having dink calves. Breed to all high birth weight and you will be pulling calves. I try to be a breeder not a multiplier, meaning I choose a bull to use based on a number of factors and one is birth weight of both the cow and the bull. I will also say that Enviornment has to be considered. Calves come a bit smaller in the heat and humidity of Florida than they do in cooler climates. All of us have to identify what works within our Enviornmental and management practices.

Gizmom
 

Son of Butch

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cow pollinater":3ujchdxc said:
bse":3ujchdxc said:
It was on another thread that a -8 CEM is almost a genetic defect, and will kill more cattle than any defect!
That number doesn't bother me at all
You'd probably never see a problem breeding purebreds to him but if you sell that kind of genetics into a herd that uses heterosis and calves on range that is a cow killing number and the goal of breeding purebreds is to make cattle for the other guy to use so he shouldn't be in purebred herds either.
There you go again CP bringing common sense to a discussion... will you never learn? :)
-8 is certainly a calf killing number and cows that have difficulty calving also have more difficulty breeding back on time. It doesn't show up in the show ring, but it does on the bottom line for commercial cattlemen.

bse Since -8 cem (aka -16 below breed average) doesn't concern you...
obviously -3 ced (10 below breed average) doesn't either, so....
How minus does a number have to be to get your attention or begin to bother you?
 

cow pollinater

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gizmom":yv9kytu3 said:
We have three daughters in production all calved unassisted all bred back first service AI. Calves out of these three heifers averaged 70#. A first calf heifer should be able to calve a 70 pound calf. I am on my phone so don't have actual birth weights in front of me. I think we need to keep some birthweight in the cattle. It goes back to moderation I believe you can breed low birth weight for to long and find you have cows having dink calves. Breed to all high birth weight and you will be pulling calves. I try to be a breeder not a multiplier, meaning I choose a bull to use based on a number of factors and one is birth weight of both the cow and the bull. I will also say that Enviornment has to be considered. Calves come a bit smaller in the heat and humidity of Florida than they do in cooler climates. All of us have to identify what works within our Enviornmental and management practices.

Gizmom
I agree. I'd even bump that number up to 85. My problem is that a -CEM means that they aren't doing that.
 

Son of Butch

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Doesn't pelvic size have as much to do with CEM outcomes as birth weight?
The only difference being pelvic scores aren't reported, but birth weights are?
-3 ced combined with -8 cem would seem to indicate more than just birth weight is contributing to the problem.
 

bse

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-3 ced doesn't even phase me. 9969 is -12 no worries but not breeding heifers. CED and CEM applies to heifers not mature cows, breed heifers to LBW high CED and as cows have something. I try to breed cattle not breed numbers!
 

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