AM/NH embryos

[mvs]

I was wondering what/if anything people were doing with embryos that were potential carriers for either NH or AM (Not both)? I have a couple, and have had a couple of people offer sale some. Just wondering if anyone had any ideas. My thoughts are if its an AMC X AMF mating (or NH), so the worst case is you have a live calf (test as carrier) and not registered. Best case for the cost of the test you have a registered calf.
Thanks

 

[mvs]

I forgot to make one thing clear, when tested, AMC (or NHC) would be sent to feedlot and slaughtered, not sold for breeding (Didn't want to have confusion)

 

[angus9259]

I own some carrier cows I don't intend to slaughter right now - but I'll test the calves and feedlot positives retain heifers from negatives. If you can pencil the profit by doing a risk / reward analysis - go for it. Personally, I couldn't pencil the profit in an ET effort around positive cows. Wehrmans said they got rid of all positive 2536 daughters but will keep flushing 2536. If I had a super nice 2536 daughter, I would keep her for AI as I mentioned above because I could pencil that. They can't. It's all math.

 

[angus9259]

So, if Werhmanns offered to sell you their 2536 cow for double sale barn price you'd turn them down? If they call . . . send them my way. :banana:

 

[mvs]

well, I appreciate the help and insight. I think for the most part, if you only have to test for one of the defects, then if the cow/bull is really good, then its worth it for the most part to me(risk/reward). In my case, in my question I was really looking for two answers--this is what my thoughts on the answers are. 1) I have some embryos from the matings that I am currently going to practice with (am a vet working toward feeling more comfortable transfering). In that case they are definately worth it and anything I get out is a bonus. However, I asked the question because I was trying to decide to put them in first, last, or just work them in. and 2) down the road if I have clients or others who have the same type matings, then I know some of the arguments for and against (again risk/reward). Basically if your willing to take the risk (and purchase/use potential carriers), then right now, it is an opportunity to improve your genetics at a cheaper price (if you can find someone who has them and not willing to take the risk).
A new question would be if you had these embryos (you can pick, one defect possible or both), what would you do with them? My thought- c-above on just one to test for. If have to test for both, then I would only do it for practice and wouldn't test.

So, again thanks for the discussion. I just recently found this board and have to say, it helps me understand where clients are coming from, so I can provide the best advise and help possible.
Thanks

 

[angus9259]

What would I personally do with them? Depends on the genetics. Most likely with most genetics, I personally would pass. If I were counseling someone, I would do it from an accounting and mathematical standpoint and it likely boils down to what is the actual value of a heifer (probably not bull) from those particular genetics.

 

[hillsdown]

have had a couple of people offer sale some

:lol2:

 

[angus9259]

So, if Werhmanns offered to sell you their 2536 cow for double sale barn price you'd turn them down? If they call . . . send them my way. :banana:

Damned right. To big a risk.

Risk? Cow has 8 transferable embryos - 4 catch - 2 are carriers (feedlot - $1000) - 2 are clean. 1 clean 2536 bull - $5000 (or more), 1 clean 2536 heifer - $10,000 (or more). Value of 2536 as cull - $700 - cost to you - $1400. Total income - $16000. Expenses - $1400 plus $1500 to feed 2536 and 4 recips plus $1000 in ET costs :compute: $12000 in the black. Rock and roll.

 

[ga. prime]

Contrary to popular belief, tax writeoffs are not profitable.

 

[Angus In Texas]

So I've got a scenario for you. I have a cow that tested AMF and NHC. I had bred her to Mile High a couple years ago which is now known to be AMC and NHF. The resulting heifer is AMF and NHF. I sold her before all of these genetic defects came to light for $15,000. I have 5 frozen embryos from the same mating that were collected before all of this came to be. Would you risk putting in those embryos and since the bull is a genetic defect carrier can I even register those calves.

At one time they had ruled that calves sired by carrier bulls would no longer be allowed to be registered but calves from cows that are carriers could be registered as long as they tested free of defects. Is this still true?

 

[Angus In Texas]

So I've got a scenario for you. I have a cow that tested AMF and NHC. I had bred her to Mile High a couple years ago which is now known to be AMC and NHF. The resulting heifer is AMF and NHF. I sold her before all of these genetic defects came to light for $15,000. I have 5 frozen embryos from the same mating that were collected before all of this came to be. Would you risk putting in those embryos and since the bull is a genetic defect carrier can I even register those calves.

At one time they had ruled that calves sired by carrier bulls would no longer be allowed to be registered but calves from cows that are carriers could be registered as long as they tested free of defects. Is this still true?

Nope I wouldnt risk it. If you had sold me an animal for 15,000 and it turned out to be a carrier I would be be nice and someone would be owin me some money.

So even though I sold the animal long before the genetic defects came to light, you would hold me responsible?

 

[Angus In Texas]

Yup. All those people that bought those 200,000 some odd dollar carriers you dont think there was court cases that were settled out of court over those? I know for a fact their were.

Good thing she tested negative for both then huh? ;-) I would hate to get caught up in a lawsuit because someone wants to hold me accountable for something that was out of my control..... people that sue over anything and everything are detrimental to society.

Now say I sell a heifer as a calf..... make no guarantees that she will be fertile, then she turns up to be infertile. Am I monetarily responsible for the buyers loss??? I say no. Buyers know the risks involved with purchasing cattle, whether that is the risk of genetic defect, infertility, or death. It comes with the territory. If you can't afford to risk losing $15,000 then don't take the gamble and make the purchase.

Now if I knowingly sold you an animal that had a defect and did not disclose the defect to you, then by all means I am responsible and want to be held accountable.

Just because someone on the internet says they know something "for a fact", doesn't mean squat to me. I'm not saying there haven't been lawsuits. I haven't heard of any but that doesn't mean anything. Just saying that there is more than likely more to the story in those cases. It is a very cut throat, screw anyone to make a dollar business, which is sad for those folks that are doing it the right way.

I am a small breeder who sold an animal, that could have been a carrier, well before there was anything brought public about the existence of the genetic defects.

 

[angus9259]

So I've got a scenario for you. I have a cow that tested AMF and NHC. I had bred her to Mile High a couple years ago which is now known to be AMC and NHF. The resulting heifer is AMF and NHF. I sold her before all of these genetic defects came to light for $15,000. I have 5 frozen embryos from the same mating that were collected before all of this came to be. Would you risk putting in those embryos and since the bull is a genetic defect carrier can I even register those calves.

At one time they had ruled that calves sired by carrier bulls would no longer be allowed to be registered but calves from cows that are carriers could be registered as long as they tested free of defects. Is this still true?

Again, to me it's about money. You sold a clean heifer. No problem. Now that they are already collected, what's your cost to implant and carry? Can you carry the cows? Worse case scenario - they throw a carrier - feedlot. Do you have recips that will sit empty otherwise or carry a commercial feeder calf - that's an easy decision for me. Will you have to go buy more embryos? Do you already have some you've bought that could go in the recips. Get the ol calculator out and let it do the work for you.

Calves from cows that are carriers can be registered once they test clean . . . actually, I think you can even register them if they're dirty till the "sundown" period is over.

 

[mvs]

For a mating between and AMC/NHF X AMF/NHC (or something like that). I would put them in if I had recips open at the end of the day. Would be my last recips and had no other embryos to put in. The odds of getting a registered calf out of this mating is only 1/16, so you got pretty luck with the one you already sold.

 

[angus9259]

For a mating between and AMC/NHF X AMF/NHC (or something like that). I would put them in if I had recips open at the end of the day. Would be my last recips and had no other embryos to put in. The odds of getting a registered calf out of this mating is only 1/16, so you got pretty luck with the one you already sold.

Yeah, I missed that the cow was a carrier as well. That sure shrinks your odds so I agree with MVS - it oughta be the last thing you do.

 

[Angus In Texas]

It is definitely something we are considering doing. The "recips" will be bred for commercial calves otherwise..... The biggest difference between implanting and breeding for commercial calves is the cost of implanting the embryos. If I get 3 live calves and all of them turn out to be carriers, then I have more costs involved but if only one is a non carrier and I can get even a third of the money I sold the previous heifer for, that more than covers my costs.

I also have 4 embryos out of an AMC cow sired by a AMF/NHF bull..... those may be worth investing in as well.

 

[mvs]

I would have no problem implanting embryos of either type matings, but it becomes a cost factor and why you are doing it. I wouldn't set up recips just for those matings. If an offspring has to be tested for both NH and AM, then you are looking at a (based on genetics) 1/16 chance of having a AMF/NHF calf. Now, I would recommend if you test for one defect (AM?) and those that test negative for that test for the other (NH?). That should cut your costs down some more. (And from a purely mathmatical point, your odds are better at a casino playing blackjack than making money money on this mating, i.e. getting a free calf)
As far as (AMC/NHF X AMF/NHF) mating, the offspring has a 50% chance of being an AMF/NHF calf, and you only have to test for one defect, so the test cost is lower and the odds of a free calf is higher.
So looking at it from a cost point of view, if I had recips left over after implanting non-carrier embryos, I would go ahead and transfer the AMC/NHF X AMF/NHF mating first (50% chance of free calf) and then the AMC/NHC (less than 10% chance).

 

[Angus In Texas]

I would have no problem implanting embryos of either type matings, but it becomes a cost factor and why you are doing it. I wouldn't set up recips just for those matings. If an offspring has to be tested for both NH and AM, then you are looking at a (based on genetics) 1/16 chance of having a AMF/NHF calf. Now, I would recommend if you test for one defect (AM?) and those that test negative for that test for the other (NH?). That should cut your costs down some more. (And from a purely mathmatical point, your odds are better at a casino playing blackjack than making money money on this mating, i.e. getting a free calf)
As far as (AMC/NHF X AMF/NHF) mating, the offspring has a 50% chance of being an AMF/NHF calf, and you only have to test for one defect, so the test cost is lower and the odds of a free calf is higher.
So looking at it from a cost point of view, if I had recips left over after implanting non-carrier embryos, I would go ahead and transfer the AMC/NHF X AMF/NHF mating first (50% chance of free calf) and then the AMC/NHC (less than 10% chance).

Thanks for the input.... I hadn't really thought about it that way. In terms of implanting one above the other due to percentages.

 

[bigag03]

I would have no problem implanting embryos of either type matings, but it becomes a cost factor and why you are doing it. I wouldn't set up recips just for those matings. If an offspring has to be tested for both NH and AM, then you are looking at a (based on genetics) 1/16 chance of having a AMF/NHF calf. Now, I would recommend if you test for one defect (AM?) and those that test negative for that test for the other (NH?). That should cut your costs down some more. (And from a purely mathmatical point, your odds are better at a casino playing blackjack than making money money on this mating, i.e. getting a free calf)
As far as (AMC/NHF X AMF/NHF) mating, the offspring has a 50% chance of being an AMF/NHF calf, and you only have to test for one defect, so the test cost is lower and the odds of a free calf is higher.
So looking at it from a cost point of view, if I had recips left over after implanting non-carrier embryos, I would go ahead and transfer the AMC/NHF X AMF/NHF mating first (50% chance of free calf) and then the AMC/NHC (less than 10% chance).

In your initial mating, there is a 25% chance of getting AMF/NHF not 6.25% (50% is correct in the second mating). If you have the recips available and the embryos are already in the tank, put them in. That is better than throwing them away, especially if even 1 calf can pay the costs.

 

[mvs]

Your right it is 25%, think I was going back to the mating of two double carriers (AMC/NHC X AMC/NHC) Sorry my math was off, but still same, would put in the others first.