am I nuts???!?!

[angus9259]

I'm looking at a picture of the grand champion bull at the Atlantic National Super-Point ROV Angus Show (pg 210 of July's Angus Journal . . . couldn't find the pic on the website or I would have posted it) . . .

I have a 3 year old first calf cow with that same topline I will probably cull. Can anyone explain that to me?? Seriously. What am I missing??

I will see if I can scan the pic too for anyone who doesn't have the journal.

 

[Frankie]

I'm looking at a picture of the grand champion bull at the Atlantic National Super-Point ROV Angus Show (pg 210 of July's Angus Journal . . . couldn't find the pic on the website or I would have posted it) . . .

I have a 3 year old first calf cow with that same topline I will probably cull. Can anyone explain that to me?? Seriously. What am I missing??

I will see if I can scan the pic too for anyone who doesn't have the journal.

This bull?

http://www.angusjournal.com/atlanticnat ... /bull.html

If so, here he is again:

http://www.angusjournal.com/reno/2008reno/bull.html

All I can say is "that's showbiz."

 

[angus9259]

The first pic is the one I was referring too. Are you sure the 2nd pic is him?

Is it a photography problem? A bull problem? Or do I not understand what the breed is supposed to look like? Perhaps all three?! :lol:

 

[RD-Sam]

From the pictures I would have selected the Reserve over the winner any day.

 

[Chris H]

Here's his jr bull calf champ picture:
P T Wustof 906
2007 jr bull calf champ

edited to add the current pic:

Honestly, I think in the current picture he is set up really badly. I'd like to see him walking before I'd make a judgement on how bad he is swaybacked.

 

[angus9259]

Here's his jr bull calf champ picture:
P T Wustof 906
2007 jr bull calf champ

edited to add the current pic:

Honestly, I think in the current picture he is set up really badly. I'd like to see him walking before I'd make a judgement on how bad he is swaybacked.

He certainly looks better here.

 

[angus9259]

Here's his jr bull calf champ picture:
P T Wustof 906
2007 jr bull calf champ

edited to add the current pic:

Honestly, I think in the current picture he is set up really badly. I'd like to see him walking before I'd make a judgement on how bad he is swaybacked.

Actually, being the eternal optimist, I have to believe that rather than he could really look like that and win. Pictures are just tough even when taken by a pro. I feel that way about SS Objective T410 also. I won't use that bull because of the way he looks in the pics, but so many people are that suggests, perhaps, I misjudge him (objective) from one picture too.

 

[bandit80]

Actually, being the eternal optimist, I have to believe that rather than he could really look like that and win. Pictures are just tough even when taken by a pro. I feel that way about SS Objective T410 also. I won't use that bull because of the way he looks in the pics, but so many people are that suggests, perhaps, I misjudge him (objective) from one picture too.

Not trying to highjack this thread, but I posed a question about Objective on here several months ago. I AI'd some Gelbvieh heifers to him for some balancer calves. While they grew good, and I kept a few heifers out of him, the calves and now 18 month old bred heifers do not have the rear end that I would like, mainly attributed to Objective. EPD's are very good across the board, but lacking in the rear.

 

[Frankie]

The first pic is the one I was referring too. Are you sure the 2nd pic is him?

Is it a photography problem? A bull problem? Or do I not understand what the breed is supposed to look like? Perhaps all three?! :lol:

Who knows? It could be the photo. If you saw him walking instead of standing with his head up, he might look better. Or not. As I said, it's show business. What one judge is looking for today might not be what another judge is looking for tomorrow.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Folks, here is another example - VERY loud and VERY clear - that "pictures" should NEVER be the criteria for making final judgements for seedstock selection! The pictures of P T Wustof 906 should be stamped in your brain cells very indelibly to the point that you should NOT forget them. The bull may be an exceptional individual genetically, and possibly functionally, BUT his Phenotype -IN THESE PICTURES - leaves SO much to be desired that I wouldn't even consider him for a clean up bull without actually seeing him and putting my hands on him!

Frankie said it very succinctly - "That's showbiz". The business of raising acceptable cattle for Seedstock and breeding for profit is one phase of Beef Production - - and raising them for :banana: :banana: :tiphat: SHOWTIME!!! :banana: :banana: :clap: :clap: :cry2: :cry2: is a WHOLE-'NUTHER thing - -ALLtogether! ...and seldom do the two 'twains' ever meet successfully! They are TWO separate businesses.

The 'sway-back' characteristic, if physiologically legitimate and NOT just because he was "set-up" incorrectly, is real for this bull, he should never be used as a breeder of seedstock cattle. Feedlot steers - maybe, but NEVER to pass that characteristic on to breeding progeny!

Bottom Line - It is NOT advisable to buy seedstock from pictures ONLY!

DON'T GET ME STARTED!

DOC HARRIS

 

[angus9259]

I hear what you're saying DOC about show and seedstock being two different things but . . .

IF IF IF he is that sway back, how can he win a show? I have a hard time believing that show cattle and seedstock are really looking for THAT different of a phenotype. Except that maybe he really isn't THAT swayback? Even as a "showbull" someone will use his as "seedstock" for their "show cattle" etc . . .

I hear what you're saying. I've just never really entered into the show thing but I have a hard time seeing that they exist that separately.

 

[RD-Sam]

Conformation is part of a show animal, and if you are breeding for the best the breed can be, it shouldn't matter if they are for seedstock or show, they should be one in the same. But then there are politics! :lol2:

 

[Chris H]

OK, I found the bull in the second link Frankie provided,

Age in this picture is between the first and second pictures I posted. Notice in his most recent picture, as a mature bull, his front legs are not perpendicular. His head is not extended. It appears the handler is pushing back on the head without getting the front legs properly set. That will make the back drop.

As Doc said, don't buy seedstock on pictures alone!

 

[Brandonm22]

Exactly, I would hate to rush to judgement over one pic. IF we were judging him by THAT pick then you would dog him on his topline and put him below the Reserve (and probably another 20 bulls at the show); BUT the judge saw him move, from behind, from front, set up, setting up, turning, up close, from more distance, etc and he THOUGHT he was the best bull in the show. IF I was there, I might have come to a different conclusion; BUT there is no question that the judge got a lot better look at him than any of us did. IF you are the type that uses young bulls based on their trophies, it probably would pay you in the longterm to actually attend the major shows. Then you could see them in the ring, in the barns, in the wash rack, etc and you would know a whole lot more about them than what you can surmise from one pic.

 

[warpaint]

Let me start by saying, I don't raise Angus as many here know.

If I had to judge from the picture, there is no way in the world, I was use this bull.

Ya'll need to listen to Doc.

 

[RD-Sam]

Doc has some good points, but not always practical. Say I wanted to buy ten straws on a bull the other end of the country, it would cost more to go visit the bull than it would cost to buy fourty straws. So you look at the pictures and the EPD's and make a judgement call. :tiphat:

 

[warpaint]

Doc has some good points, but not always practical. Say I wanted to buy ten straws on a bull the other end of the country, it would cost more to go visit the bull than it would cost to buy fourty straws. So you look at the pictures and the EPD's and make a judgement call. :tiphat:

You say Doc aint always practical, But you say you want 10 straws from a bull you've seen one picture of. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to argue with you, just trying to clarify, what your'e saying.

Are you telling me, that you would buy 10 from this bull, judging on the one pic we have and his epd's?

 

[Brandonm22]

Ten straws at $20 a straw would just cost $200; BUT if that ten straws become 5 cows in your registered herd then we could be talking about 5 productive top cows worth ~$2200 a piece and producing marketable commercial bulls, show prospects and show heifers versus 5 early culls worth $600 a piece and producing feeder calves your really not proud of then I could certainly justify spending some money on a road trip.

 

[Chris H]

Doc has some good points, but not always practical. Say I wanted to buy ten straws on a bull the other end of the country, it would cost more to go visit the bull than it would cost to buy fourty straws. So you look at the pictures and the EPD's and make a judgement call. :tiphat:

I agree somewhat, I'd also throw in other factors to consider. I'd consider if I'd seen similar genetics in other animals and if the animal had been show then I'd consider how it did when judged against it's peers. I'd consider any offspring, too, even if it was only pictures. I'd also figure using a new bull on only a small portion of the cow herd, to test how the genetics work within our herd.
Sometimes it is not possible to see an animal in person, how many of you have bought semen through a company and never saw the animal?

 

[Brandonm22]

You don't need to ever see the animal if you have seen 20++ progeny in different herds and have EPD data from 70+++ head out of 7++ herds. Progeny performance trumps individual performance. In another string, a poster was complaining because an AI sire had what he felt was a mediocre weaning weight. I looked up the sire and he had over 1000 weaning weights turned in to the association. That those 1000 calves out ratioed their contemporaries tells more about that sire's growth genetics than what he weaned back in 1999 did. Folks that don't use a bull until he has 80% EPD accuracy and they have seen adult daughters in shows, sales, and the neighbors' pastures don't really need to obsess over one photo in the Angus Journal. They are judging him by the phenotype that he stamps his progeny with NOT the phenotype he hints at by eyeballing him. Doc's point is that if you are going to use young bulls with no progeny on the ground you might want to go see the bull and ideally the bull's mom before incorporating his genetics into your herd.