I tell people all the time, if you ever get a chance to talk with Jack and get to know him and come away from your conversations still thinking he isn't committed or has the passion for the Hereford breed then I'd be surprised. Like I've stated in reply to your comments about Mr Ward on another forum. I know some who know him fairly well who aren't sold on him in his current or previous position. There are many nice enthusiastic men who aren't the best candidate for the position he holds.
AHA
- Thread starter farmguy
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Ky hills
Well-known member
I agree with you, SPH, one of the best ways to introduce Hereford genetics, is to use a Hereford bull on black cows. The calves should sell well in about any market, and heifer calves can be easily marketed as replacement females. I prefer Hereford cows, so I have been using an Angus bull on them, this year am breeding most of my commercial Herefords to a Hereford bull hoping to get some heifers to keep as cows.
My computer messed up so couldn't finish the previous post. Some of the issues I've seen over the last 2-3 years in my search for Hereford bulls and females. First I want to say I've seen some of the same issues in Angus and other breeds. I've seen more of these issues in polled cattle as the polled cattle in my area tend to have more of a show influence than the horned cattle do. I've been offered two bulls that have had hernias fixed. I've seen many structural and feet issues. I recently saw a herd where a hoof trimmer shows up on a regular basis just like a horse shoer does for a horse owner. Most commercial cattlemen don't want an animal that they have to pay extra to maintain. I've seen some good polled cattle but when I have the average commercial breeder can't afford the price to own them. Again I place part of the issue with show cattle being a feature of some Hereford breeders on the leadership. Instead of focusing on what the commercial breeder needs to be profitable and what will perform in the feedlot many have focused on non functional cattle that won't perform just because some judge has hung a ribbon on them.
To be fair I've seen some of the same issues with other breeds. A local vet named a new wing he built after a prominent Black cattle breeder in KS because he said he built it with money from trimming and trying to keep bulls purchased at that breeders sales and their progeny sound.
In the end most breeders are good people. Many have never had to raise/manage a cowherd with the intent to make money. Many times the good intentions leave a bad impression on the whole breed. I have seen the structural issues in both horned and polled although I would say a higher percentage have been polled.
Ky Hills we would love to use a Hereford bull on black cows. The problem is the lady I go with wants a polled bull and in the 2-3 years we have looked we haven't found one of the desired quality we felt would make economical sense to buy when we can buy bulls of equal quality for less. I have found some Hereford influenced cattle I like and may go that route.
To be fair I've seen some of the same issues with other breeds. A local vet named a new wing he built after a prominent Black cattle breeder in KS because he said he built it with money from trimming and trying to keep bulls purchased at that breeders sales and their progeny sound.
In the end most breeders are good people. Many have never had to raise/manage a cowherd with the intent to make money. Many times the good intentions leave a bad impression on the whole breed. I have seen the structural issues in both horned and polled although I would say a higher percentage have been polled.
Ky Hills we would love to use a Hereford bull on black cows. The problem is the lady I go with wants a polled bull and in the 2-3 years we have looked we haven't found one of the desired quality we felt would make economical sense to buy when we can buy bulls of equal quality for less. I have found some Hereford influenced cattle I like and may go that route.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
If the AHA depends on quality cattle to be successful then why have they not recognized the problem and sought ways, breed-wide, to fit it. I can bet money that it is not just you who cannot find what they want or need. Isn't that part of the function of AHA paid field reps: keep their ear to the ground to listen for hoof beats on the local level?
Many good comments, and I especially appreciate the comments of SPH regarding that we are responsible for our breeding decisions, not the breed association. That is so true.
Frequently I hear comments made by seedstock producers that they can't find this or that in their breed (i.e. more marbling, lower birth weights, better feet, etc.). We live and work in a free country. If you aren't able to find what you think the breed needs, begin a strict breeding and culling program to develop it yourself. If you are right that it is an important trait for the breed and you are successful in accomplishing it, you will be rewarded financially for your hard work, foresight, and dedication to your program.
I too have been frustrated with the poor feet, fertility, disposition, etc. of many top bulls from "elite" breeders. After years of frustration, I have eliminated many breeding programs from my list of possible sources for bulls, semen, and females. Though I still get disappointed at times, it happens less and less as I have found breeders with similar philosophies as me, who cull similarly to me, and produce cattle in similar environments to me. I
Regarding Jack Ward, I know him personally and he is 100% devoted to the Hereford breed. Just because he goes home at night and works with his hobby herd of Angus doesn't mean that he isn't looking out for the best of the Hereford breed and their breeders. I encourage anyone that has a concern about Jack's breed loyalty to take some time and visit with him, before they spread rumors of his priority to Angus cattle.
Frequently I hear comments made by seedstock producers that they can't find this or that in their breed (i.e. more marbling, lower birth weights, better feet, etc.). We live and work in a free country. If you aren't able to find what you think the breed needs, begin a strict breeding and culling program to develop it yourself. If you are right that it is an important trait for the breed and you are successful in accomplishing it, you will be rewarded financially for your hard work, foresight, and dedication to your program.
I too have been frustrated with the poor feet, fertility, disposition, etc. of many top bulls from "elite" breeders. After years of frustration, I have eliminated many breeding programs from my list of possible sources for bulls, semen, and females. Though I still get disappointed at times, it happens less and less as I have found breeders with similar philosophies as me, who cull similarly to me, and produce cattle in similar environments to me. I
Regarding Jack Ward, I know him personally and he is 100% devoted to the Hereford breed. Just because he goes home at night and works with his hobby herd of Angus doesn't mean that he isn't looking out for the best of the Hereford breed and their breeders. I encourage anyone that has a concern about Jack's breed loyalty to take some time and visit with him, before they spread rumors of his priority to Angus cattle.
Thanks UG and great response yourself! That's the biggest thing that irks me about people who bad mouth Jack is most of them have never even met the man in person or even had a conversation with him yet they already have this pre-conceived view of him based off hearsay or what others are saying about him. Any one of us can start up rumors and hearsay on just about anything and act like we don't have to be held accountable for the amount of truth there is to it because if so and so said it then it must be true right? Quite honestly I am tired of seeing so many negative posts from who act like they are the only ones who know what's best for the breed and some of these folks probably don't even make an effort to get out and look at cattle in other places or attend association functions and get to know some of the people behind the leadership that they are constantly saying they are fed up with. It's much easier to sit from the comfort of your home at your computer looking out the window admiring your own cattle and start ranting on the internet just how bad things are or how everyone else is bringing the value of your cattle down, etc. Get involved with your association or get in touch with your board of directors and field reps and start having some conversations with things you have issue with. You're going to have much more meaningful conversation with a chance of something productive to come from it doing that versus posting your rants on internet message boards.
I'm not denying there are things that can be improved on both with how an association is running and the type of cattle being bred. Things can always be improved or made more efficient and I think anyone who breeds any type of livestock would agree you'll never breed the perfect animal no matter how hard you try but some folks act like the sky is falling sometimes. Not everyone has unlimited resources either or ideal conditions to work with and for some even the knowledge to know how to properly manage their livestock, but bottom line is the buck stops with you when it comes to accountability for what you are raising and how you are able to market and sell it. If you don't like the "latest and greatest" bull out there no one is forcing you to use them. If you don't believe in EPDs no one is forcing you to use them as part of your selection criteria. As long as you are breeding sound cattle that your customer base finds desirable who are you to say what 1 guy is doing is bad and what you are doing is right? And as much as some will not admit it, building relationships and knowing how to market your cattle is just as much if not more important than the actual product you are raising. If no one trusts you or believes in what you are doing it won't matter how good of product you have, they'll find someone else out there who meets their needs and do business with them instead. I've seen and heard it play out many times where all it takes is 1 bad experience with a breeder and that buyer will never come back again even if that guy is raising the type of cattle they like. There are a lot of breeders out there that have been in the business for a very long time and have sold more cattle than some would ever be able to do over several lifetimes and who is anyone to preach from their pedestal that they are doing it all wrong?
I'm not denying there are things that can be improved on both with how an association is running and the type of cattle being bred. Things can always be improved or made more efficient and I think anyone who breeds any type of livestock would agree you'll never breed the perfect animal no matter how hard you try but some folks act like the sky is falling sometimes. Not everyone has unlimited resources either or ideal conditions to work with and for some even the knowledge to know how to properly manage their livestock, but bottom line is the buck stops with you when it comes to accountability for what you are raising and how you are able to market and sell it. If you don't like the "latest and greatest" bull out there no one is forcing you to use them. If you don't believe in EPDs no one is forcing you to use them as part of your selection criteria. As long as you are breeding sound cattle that your customer base finds desirable who are you to say what 1 guy is doing is bad and what you are doing is right? And as much as some will not admit it, building relationships and knowing how to market your cattle is just as much if not more important than the actual product you are raising. If no one trusts you or believes in what you are doing it won't matter how good of product you have, they'll find someone else out there who meets their needs and do business with them instead. I've seen and heard it play out many times where all it takes is 1 bad experience with a breeder and that buyer will never come back again even if that guy is raising the type of cattle they like. There are a lot of breeders out there that have been in the business for a very long time and have sold more cattle than some would ever be able to do over several lifetimes and who is anyone to preach from their pedestal that they are doing it all wrong?
SPH":1cn9vn37 said:
"we all are entitled to our opinions." SPH I copied this statement directly from a post of yours on another forum. Seems odd to me that you make it and then come over here and talk about those that don't agree with your view of Mr Ward. What irks me about people is those that flip flop on their views when it benefits them. It seems you and a few others have a lovefest for him and try to degrade everyone who has a different view of his goals for the Hereford breed. I have never heard a bad word or said a bad word myself about him as a person. But when it comes to his goals and loyalities I have seen seen several that do have questions about them. I haven't met him as a person and as a commercial breeder likely never will. But I have read posts by and talked to those who have met him and also personal friends of his. And more than one have told me that his first loyalty is too the show world. And that is evident by his actions in my opinion. Does that make him a bad person no. Is that the best direction for the Hereford breed to follow in my opinion no. And like you stated I'm still entitled to that opinion.
UG you can call it a hobby herd of Angus if you wish. Again we are entitled to our view. I see it differently but can tell I would never change your mind. Again friends of his have expressed a different view. Again I feel he is a good man but not the best person to be leading the Hereford breed.
I will always have a spot for Herefords in my heart but as a commercial breeder I have to make the best decision for my cowherd and the one I help with. If it was solely up to me I would have a horned bull. But can also understand the reason the lady prefers a polled bull. And feel at the present other breeds offer better quality, more structurally sound, better performing cattle at a more reasonable price so until the current trend changes there likely won't be any Herefords in the pasture. I do plan on looking at one more herd of a breeder who has elected to go the commercial route and not register his cattle. But unless that works out another black bull will be roaming the pastures.
elkwc":1879hbd9 said:
elkwc, where have I flip flopped my views to benefit myself? I challenge you to prove that because I feel I've been pretty consistent with the tone I use. It's no secret that I will defend Jack Ward's leadership when someone bashes him and you just proved my point by admitting that you have never met or spoke with him and are basing your opinion of him when you openly admit your opinion of him comes from message board fodder and hearsay of others. I'm not a fan of the show ring crowd myself much like you aren't either. My dad never liked when my brother or I wanted to show a cow/calf pair when we showed as juniors because he felt a cow belonged in a pasture not in a show ring. We mostly showed heifers we raised ourselves which meant they were bred to be cows not show heifers so we weren't big names on the show string. The few show heifers we did buy from other breeders were with the intent they would be productive cows in herd after the show season.
If you have issues with Jack I challenge you to contact him and see if he will respond to you as I've found that a lot of folks that badmouth him have never even made an attempt to have any kind of direct interaction with him. His email is listed here: http://www.hereford.org/seedstock/office-staff as well as the number to AHA. We aren't "big fish" when it comes to Hereford breeders with a herd of just 20-25 females but Jack has always taken the time to acknowledge and respond to us when we've had questions or concerns. If you want to base your opinion of him on non-direct interaction with him that is your choice but it doesn't mean that I have to agree with that assessment.
SPH just because I don't agree with Mr Wards apparent course for Herefords and feel that some of his loyalities fall elsewhere and not who I feel was the best choice for the Hereford association doesn't mean I have a problem with him. I don't have any issues with him as a person. I would wager that several of those who I have talked too have had way more interaction with him than you have. I put more weight in their opinion than someone who had a brief conversations with him at some event. A person who has had direct business dealings with him might have some insight to his views. I'm not sure what your problem is. You attacked the administrator on another site for some belittling people and now everyone who dares to question Mr Wards actions gets belittled by you over here. I will continue to express my opinions on Mr Ward or any other subject I have an opinion on that I want to express. And please send me a pm with the instances where I bad mouthed him. I'll be waiting.
elkwc":13a1kbue said:
I've sat across the table from Jack at dinner on more than one ocassion as well as been attendance at functions he has spoke at, exchanged emails with him and my parents managed the state breed sale for several years and had several interactions with him involving that sale as well as other things regarding the breed before he became EVP. I don't know how else I can prove to you that I am more than confident where I feel his loyalties are when all you can base your opinion off of is 3rd party information.
I've seen you state you have talked to others about a bull before deciding to use him. By your statements here you are basing your decision and opinion of the bull on 3rd hand information. In your relations with Mr ward he was doing the job he is getting paid to do. Public relations is part of it. Those who spend time on a regular basis around him whether as a friend or coworker many times have more insight. It is the same when asking about a bull you can often find out more from a breeder that has used him than a short visual look at him. I'm still waiting for the pm with the instances where I bad mouthed him. I sure hope you quit forming opinions about anything based on information gained from others. I thought that was how we learned and could avoid mistakes.SPH":5qwgeo8k said:
