AHA

[farmguy]

On another cattle website where I am banned because of my E mail name, according to the administrator, there is a thread called" at what point do you say enough". In all seriousness what are the complaints about the American Hereford Association? There is no real reason given that I can fathom. I am not trying to start something but I do want to know and if you want to delete this thread so be it. Is this just in the Hereford breed or is there in fighting in all breeds? Is there this going on between red and black Angus? I have met wonderful Hereford people and then I have met Hereford breeders who at a cattle function told everyone that 80% of Herefords were worthless. Here is a quote from that forum.

"Tim.... Your last two clues have described what I have seen in at least half of the Polled Hereford cattle I have seen sell this spring. They have taken what was left after the frame race and bred them right into the ground.... Short squatty dinks that peckers drag in the cheatgrass, too fat to travel for feed or water on the range. Hell they don't have enough feet and legs under them to travel to feed and water under pivot irrigation. Many of them do not have enough legs and have too many guts to mount a cow and get her bred. Yes it is biting all Hereford cattle breeders right square in the butt!!!!... NUFF SAID...

Randy wrote Good Polled Bull...Hmmm...I am still looking....

Thank you and if this post is deleted I will understand.

 

[js1234]

I've got an awful lot of horned hereford bulls and that just about sums up what i think of polled herefords, lol.

 

[mrvictordomino]

I think the original post talked about the fees charged for services rendered. I ran some Red Angus on the side year ago and have had the Herefords for forty years. Not much difference in the way associations operate. Also, some would like to see more emphases placed on the commercial side rather than the show side. As far as Horned/Polled, I believe you can find good and bad on either side. You just need to find what you like and what works for you. In my area, polled works better for most, "one less thing" as Forest Gump would say. I see a lot of horned cattle pictured that I like.

 

[Ebenezer]

I know nothing about AHA but any truthful discussion is good. If we cannot air out the problems then disconnected breeders and members either live in a void or want to think that the ship is not sinking even thought they have water up to their waist.

I remember a quote of an old guy: "The worst two things that happened to American agriculture was the show ring and the moldboard plow". A lot of truth in that. Show rings, EPDs, herd prefixes and now genetic testing can wag the dog. We need never to forget that the cattle are for economic production of a quality product. Many have forgotten or don't care as long as they win, get a thrill or beat somebody else for power or position.

My sampling of HH and PH did not mean much to me or anybody. I used bulls of different times and different locations and types. If any Herefords had better pound value in barns then there would be a lot more. The past still haunts the breed.

 

[Herefords.US]

On another cattle website where I am banned because of my E mail name, according to the administrator, there is a thread called" at what point do you say enough". In all seriousness what are the complaints about the American Hereford Association? There is no real reason given that I can fathom. I am not trying to start something but I do want to know and if you want to delete this thread so be it. Is this just in the Hereford breed or is there in fighting in all breeds? Is there this going on between red and black Angus? I have met wonderful Hereford people and then I have met Hereford breeders who at a cattle function told everyone that 80% of Herefords were worthless. Here is a quote from that forum.

"Tim.... Your last two clues have described what I have seen in at least half of the Polled Hereford cattle I have seen sell this spring. They have taken what was left after the frame race and bred them right into the ground.... Short squatty dinks that peckers drag in the cheatgrass, too fat to travel for feed or water on the range. be nice they don't have enough feet and legs under them to travel to feed and water under pivot irrigation. Many of them do not have enough legs and have too many guts to mount a cow and get her bred. Yes it is biting all Hereford cattle breeders right square in the butt!!!!... NUFF SAID...

Randy wrote Good Polled Bull...Hmmm...I am still looking....

Thank you and if this post is deleted I will understand.

To fully reply to your question would require a lengthy diatribe. But the short answer is that the AHA suffered for many years from ineffective leadership that allowed the Angus breed to easily wrestle their "KIng of Cow Country" moniker away from Herefords and turn them into a breed in distant second place, fighting for survival and relevance.

Add to that a merger between the American Hereford Association and the American Polled Hereford Association that resulted in a rocky, unhappy marriage that is still not completely sorted out. The AHA was dominated by breeders who favored the performance aspects of their breed, while the APHA was dominated by breeders who were heavily involved in the showring aspects of their breed. Even though it has been over 20 years since the merger, the turmoil over what the breed's "identity" is going to be is still being decided. Are Herefords going to be a breed that provides cow/calf producers and feeders with the traits that are needed to make a profit, or are Herefords going to follow the path that the majority of the Shorthorn breed took and become a novelty breed catering to the show jocks? Maybe both? Is that possible? That drama creates ongoing dissent about where association money is and SHOULD BE focused.

Now the AHA is being run by folks that are viewed disparagingly by some as being "Angus men" and those members question where the "loyalty" really lies in those leaders.

We are just a group, unhappy with the status quo, that likes to "pizz and moan" about everything...and whose only common ground, in many cases, is that we all love our cattle and our breed! If the HT forum seems heavily weighted with "malcontents", it is. Many(most?) prominent Hereford breeders are like any other "political class" when it comes to the AHA. They are cowards and will not post their true opinions on public forums. They reserve those for their close friends over drinks at the bar or private discussions in the "board rooms" where their opinions will seldom see the light of day. Political correctness, you know! Political correctness is a poor substitute for truth and frankness in my world.

 

[Ky hills]

I am not a member of the AHA, but I do have an interest in Hereford cattle from a commercial standpoint. It stands to reason that in any association there is going to be disagreement about setting directions and agendas. I am not particularly impressed with some of the show ring trends and have avoided those cattle. As another poster said earlier, polled cattle are seemingly in higher demand here than horned, of any breed. I think that Herefords (both horned and polled), have a lot to offer the industry. I have found the Hereford females to be fertile and reliable calf raisers. I like them especially because of there disposition and ease of handling on average.

 

[gizmom]

It isn't just the AHA just go over to advantage nd you will hear the Angus group fighting. Same ole same ole.

Gizmo

 

[True Grit Farms]

It isn't just the AHA just go over to advantage nd you will hear the Angus group fighting. Same ole same ole.

Gizmo

And the American Simmental Association is laughing all the way to the bank. Here's a picture of the new three story $2.4 million dollar ASA building in Bozeman MT. It's beautiful and the members even have a weight room, showers and lockers.

 

[JWBrahman]

Hereford Talk has loser stink all over it, that is why it is just a handful of guys betchin about other people making money.

True Grit, the ABBA has been laughing at the bank, too.

 

[JWBrahman]

How the moderator at Hereford Talk acts if he doesn't like your post,photos/Herefords:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qXVGdetqPG8

 

[UG]

Though I am not familiar with the specific issues you mention regarding the AHA, there seems to always be some in-fighting going on in breed associations. From my perspective it has gotten worse in recent years with many different agendas:
-Some want breed associations to run as they did 50+ years ago, with their primary purpose being to promote the breed and maintain the herd book. This segment doesn't seem to have much use for EPDs and genomic testing and seem to think that just breeding "good cattle" will save their breed and the beef industry
-Others are highly focused on the show ring and/or junior programs, and don't seem to realize that if their cattle don't work for the commercial sector, eventually they will lose their market share. The U.S. Shorthorn breed is a good example of not paying enough attention to the commercial sector and are now scrambling to gain commercial acceptance and market share.
-Others are extremely focused on EPDs and genomics and seem to only "breed by the numbers"; the higher the better. Many in this group have practically ignored other crucial traits like feet and leg structure, teat and udders, etc.

My concern is that US beef breed associations may go the way of the US swine breed associations, if they don't continue to put most of their resources on providing cattle that are relevant to the commercial sector and the ultimate consumer. The US swine registries seemed to ignore the markets demands for more productive hogs, that also had informative genetic predictions (i.e. EPDs), and the independent breeding companies in a relatively short amount of time captured a very large percentage of the swine breeding stock market share.

There is speculation that some of the larger beef seedstock suppliers will eventually leave their breed associations and combine to create their own genetic predictions. Many of these larger producers are tired of paying breed associations large amounts of money every year and not getting enough return for their investment. If this does happen, I suspect it will become a domino effect, and several other larger seedstock producers will leave as well. Eventually the breed associations will be left with only smaller breeders who are more focused on raising pretty cattle that they can show at Denver, Louisville, etc.

 

[Son of Butch]

If any Herefords had better pound value in barns then there would be a lot more. The past still haunts the breed.

From commercial point of view that sums it up concisely.

 

[Son of Butch]

My concern is that US beef breed associations may go the way of the US swine breed associations, if they don't continue to put most of their resources on providing cattle that are relevant to the commercial sector and the ultimate consumer. The US swine registries seemed to ignore the markets demands for more productive hogs, that also had informative genetic predictions (i.e. EPDs), and the independent breeding companies in a relatively short amount of time captured a very large percentage of the swine breeding stock market share.

That is a very interesting analogy UG.

 

[Herefords.US]

My concern is that US beef breed associations may go the way of the US swine breed associations, if they don't continue to put most of their resources on providing cattle that are relevant to the commercial sector and the ultimate consumer. The US swine registries seemed to ignore the markets demands for more productive hogs, that also had informative genetic predictions (i.e. EPDs), and the independent breeding companies in a relatively short amount of time captured a very large percentage of the swine breeding stock market share.

There is speculation that some of the larger beef seedstock suppliers will eventually leave their breed associations and combine to create their own genetic predictions. Many of these larger producers are tired of paying breed associations large amounts of money every year and not getting enough return for their investment. If this does happen, I suspect it will become a domino effect, and several other larger seedstock producers will leave as well. Eventually the breed associations will be left with only smaller breeders who are more focused on raising pretty cattle that they can show at Denver, Louisville, etc.

Once the predictions of beef cattle's individual genetic potential become much more accurate (SUPER GE EPDs), I see the same thing happening. The commercial beef industry has no use for the purple ribbons, only what genetic package will produce a product that makes the most profit in the conditions that cattle are raised under. Breeds will be superseded with higher refined "strains" whose genetic makeup is laser focused on a particular purpose - maternal, terminal, feedlot based finishing, grass based finishing, etc., etc.

 

[Ebenezer]

Eventually the breed associations will be left with only smaller breeders who are more focused on raising pretty cattle that they can show at Denver, Louisville, etc.

I do not believe that the average breeders who are blocked by power players or controlling employees of the associations are this petty. A lot of small breeders raise great cattle and enjoy that they can improve their herds.

Some of the big boys will leave the breeds as they make their cattle more single use such as infertile carcass wonders. Their cattle will become more and more useless to the majority members and breeders as they will need too much support. It would be quicker to just use Wagyu and leave the larger breeds trying to hold steady on maternal. But there is less ego to find that a cure already exists and you can beat the folks who you deem as enemies. The old adage, "He who dies with the most toys wins." is the mantra for the power grabbers of the breed associations.

 

[Ky hills]

Breed associations in my opinion should be functioning primarily to promote the breed and to register cattle. Part of promoting would/should be to take all available resources such as epds, genomic testing, and performance data, etc, seriously in order to compete so to speak with other breeds by offering similar information. Marketing is another area in which breeds can improve and provide customers with an avenue and incentive to use a certain breed.
The Ky Certified Hereford sales are an example, it provided a source for me to acquire some good quality Hereford and Hereford cross females.
I agree with others that have posted that the past haunts Herefords, with a lot of folks but, I now consider them my cow breed of choice. We worked cattle today, and while our cattle are fairly easy to work with, the Herefords on average are more calm than others here.

 

[cow pollinater]

My concern is that US beef breed associations may go the way of the US swine breed associations, if they don't continue to put most of their resources on providing cattle that are relevant to the commercial sector and the ultimate consumer. The US swine registries seemed to ignore the markets demands for more productive hogs, that also had informative genetic predictions (i.e. EPDs), and the independent breeding companies in a relatively short amount of time captured a very large percentage of the swine breeding stock market share.

.

That is already in play to some extent. Notice that all of the exotics and even the english breeds now come in black and most have a crossbreeding program involving angus. I see the hereford breed having a strong foothold moving forward if they maintain purity as they will be about the only source for big time heterosis from a useable commercial cow.

 

[nathan arizona]

Interesting to read all of this as someone who has no dog in the fight and no knowledge. What's interesting to me is how it seems that some things are the same regardless of industries. My experience is that industry associations have a tendency toward in-fighting and also, frankly, toward laziness. The full time leader of the association has to be a driver and the position itself doesn't really lend itself toward that. The folks that care about the industry and who are talented are probably in it, making money as business people. And, if you get a driver in the position, he also has to have to power to be able to bring two fighting sides to an agreement, and that's hard to do when you get a board with egos. (Which almost always happens, because powerful folks are on the board.)

My experience is in transportation industry, but this sure looks familiar to me - outside looking in.

 

[farmguy]

I was disappointed in that no one mentioned any specific problem with the AHA. Maybe you would prefer to PM me. I would just like definite things that happened. As I understand the current head of the AHA has an Angus history, how does that play into things. Thanks in advance for any info, farmguy.

 

[SPH]

I was disappointed in that no one mentioned any specific problem with the AHA. Maybe you would prefer to PM me. I would just like definite things that happened. As I understand the current head of the AHA has an Angus history, how does that play into things. Thanks in advance for any info, farmguy.

This is just my personal opinion but you'll never keep everyone happy in any kind of association and that's not just an AHA thing that's any breed, specie, or any kind of association you could join. That being said, the new EVP of AHA Jack Ward has worked for AHA since 2003 as director of breed development and has been EVP for just over a year now so it's kind of hard to be too critical of the job he's doing as EVP yet when he just finished up his first year in the role. Yes he has some Angus background but I'm sure if you dig into the backgrounds of the people that work for other breed or even other species of animals you are going to find some backgrounds other than the breed they are working for. The man he replaced at AHA in Craig Huffhines is now the EVP for the American Quarter Horse Association and I'm pretty sure Craig's primary background was not in quarter horses. I tell people all the time, if you ever get a chance to talk with Jack and get to know him and come away from your conversations still thinking he isn't committed or has the passion for the Hereford breed then I'd be surprised.

I think the biggest issue some guys have with AHA is they feel they are too caught up with EPDs and academia as well as the show cattle world. That's a fair concern and I'm not going to deny there is some validity to that but I also say to those folks who is making the decisions on your farm on what bulls you breed to or how you manage your cattle? AHA is not making those decisions, you are. So it's hard to place all the blame on the AHA if you aren't raising good cattle that you can market because that's squarely on you for making those breeding and management decisions. If you don't want to use EPD's or other tools the AHA provides then don't, no one is forcing your hand to use genetics you don't feel will work and perform for you. If you don't like paying fees that go along with registering purebred cattle then by all means cancel your association membership and start raising commercial cattle but I think most would agree that you're probably going to be able to get more for your seedstock cattle if they are registered purebreds.

I had the pleasure of viewing the herd of the current AHA president just a few days ago when I was in their area and I came away very impressed with the cattle they are breeding. Maybe some of the folks irked about Ward's Angus background also may not like that the association's current president whose family has been raising cattle since 1946 and sells around 400 bulls a year also has a herd of red and black angus too but personally non of that bothers me because good cattle is good cattle. The Hereford breed today especially is trying to market Hereford bulls to commercial breeders so I don't see why some are so closed minded when it comes to other breeds when you should want people raising those breeds to see the value in using one of your Hereford bulls. Nearly all our bull buyers are commercial operations running mostly black cattle and I'm sure as heck not going to trash on what they are breeding because I want them to buy a Hereford bull to mate with their black cows and have success breeding black baldies.