Abortion

[Margonme]

Preface: Not intended to generate religious or political debate.

In Roe versus Wade, Wade brought before the court a very clever and referenced argument. Read if you want something to think about:

Wade argued that the only rational way to understand what the Constitution means by the word “person” was to go to “the teachings at the time the Constitution was framed.” Doing this, he quoted William Blackstone, who is described in Simon & Shuster’s New Millennium Encyclopedia as a “British jurist and legal scholar, whose work Commentaries on the Laws of England was used for more than a century as the foundation of all legal education in Great Britain and the U.S.” As Wade noted, in this work, Blackstone wrote that life is a “right” that “is inherent by nature in every individual, and exists even before the child is born.”

 

[HDRider]

And yet Roe prevailed beyond reason...

Justices White and Rehnquist wrote emphatic dissenting opinions. White wrote:

I find nothing in the language or history of the Constitution to support the Court's judgment. The Court simply fashions and announces a new constitutional right for pregnant women and, with scarcely any reason or authority for its action, invests that right with sufficient substance to override most existing state abortion statutes. The upshot is that the people and the legislatures of the 50 States are constitutionally disentitled to weigh the relative importance of the continued existence and development of the fetus, on the one hand, against a spectrum of possible impacts on the woman, on the other hand. As an exercise of raw judicial power, the Court perhaps has authority to do what it does today; but, in my view, its judgment is an improvident and extravagant exercise of the power of judicial review that the Constitution extends to this Court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade

 

[greybeard]

"unalienable right to Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

 

[Bestoutwest]

"unalienable right to Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

Yes, but a fetus cannot survive outside of the womb until 26 weeks, and that needs massive amounts of medical intervention. So, the real debate becomes when does a fetus become a person? Well, that's a chicken or the egg type of debate that is honestly unanswerable because it's an opinion. It becomes scientific fact vs. religious ideology, and that is why we have the Supreme Court. Whether we like their decision or not, it's one we must live with (just like there are many decisions the Supreme Court has supported that I don't agree with). Personally, I'd rather have abortions be accessible to women because it's cheaper for society and it's safer for the women (which ends up being cheaper for society, too). You can't legislate morality, if you could we wouldn't need prisons.

 

[Margonme]

"unalienable right to Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

Yes, but a fetus cannot survive outside of the womb until 26 weeks, and that needs massive amounts of medical intervention. So, the real debate becomes when does a fetus become a person? Well, that's a chicken or the egg type of debate that is honestly unanswerable because it's an opinion. It becomes scientific fact vs. religious ideology, and that is why we have the Supreme Court. Whether we like their decision or not, it's one we must live with (just like there are many decisions the Supreme Court has supported that I don't agree with). Personally, I'd rather have abortions be accessible to women because it's cheaper for society and it's safer for the women (which ends up being cheaper for society, too). You can't legislate morality, if you could we wouldn't need prisons.

Best:

You are missing a point that many do. IT WAS NEVER ABOUT MORALITY. It is about the Constitution and whether it protects THE PERSON. Furthermore, it is not about defining when a fetus can support itself. Pay very close attention to that.

 

[True Grit Farms]

"unalienable right to Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

Yes, but a fetus cannot survive outside of the womb until 26 weeks, and that needs massive amounts of medical intervention. So, the real debate becomes when does a fetus become a person? Well, that's a chicken or the egg type of debate that is honestly unanswerable because it's an opinion. It becomes scientific fact vs. religious ideology, and that is why we have the Supreme Court. Whether we like their decision or not, it's one we must live with (just like there are many decisions the Supreme Court has supported that I don't agree with). Personally, I'd rather have abortions be accessible to women because it's cheaper for society and it's safer for the women (which ends up being cheaper for society, too). You can't legislate morality, if you could we wouldn't need prisons.

Dang it I agree with you on this subject. I'm pro life, but the way I see it is, if you're not hurting my quality of life have at it. And I sure don't think I have the right to try and force my personal views down someone's throats. I sure would like to have the option of assisted suicide also, and it's hard to condone one and not the other.

 

[M-5]

It's murder plain and simple. When an eagle egg is protected and a human is not people have perveted the law.

 

[Kell-inKY]

Yes, but a fetus cannot survive outside of the womb until 26 weeks,

To use your logic:

A fetus (baby!) cannot survive without it's mother at 26 weeks old.
A baby also cannot survive without it's mother (or other caregiver?) a month after it's born, does that mean they can still kill it?

In both instances, the mother is feeding the baby and keeping it warm. Also, this baby was never just a "part" of the mother, completely different genetics, blood etc.

 

[Rafter S]

I firmly believe that a woman should have the right to choose what to do with her body, but when she's pregnant that child isn't her body, it's someone else's, and I don't believe she should have the right to kill it just because it's continuing existence is inconvenient.

And while I won't name names, I've known a few women that had legal abortions. They thought they were making the right decision at the time, but it messed them up for years afterwards (emotionally, not physically).

 

[TexasBred]

"unalienable right to Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

Yes, but a fetus cannot survive outside of the womb until 26 weeks, and that needs massive amounts of medical intervention. So, the real debate becomes when does a fetus become a person? Well, that's a chicken or the egg type of debate that is honestly unanswerable because it's an opinion. It becomes scientific fact vs. religious ideology, and that is why we have the Supreme Court. Whether we like their decision or not, it's one we must live with (just like there are many decisions the Supreme Court has supported that I don't agree with). Personally, I'd rather have abortions be accessible to women because it's cheaper for society and it's safer for the women (which ends up being cheaper for society, too). You can't legislate morality, if you could we wouldn't need prisons.

Because your mom disagreed with this view of life, you have the opportunity to make this comment.

 

[Bestoutwest]

Because your mom disagreed with this view of life, you have the opportunity to make this comment.

That's because my parents were at a financial point where they could afford me. And my mother hadn't been raped. And there was not going to be a potential catastrophic event to my mother's health had I been born. Or there was not going to be a life ending, catastrophic medical condition that I was born with that would have resulted in me living a shortened life full of pain and suffering.

Look, we all like to look at abortion like it's this thing that only 25 year old party girls go out and do when they have an oops. In fact, just like most things in life, it's multi-faceted and isn't just cut and dried murder as some like to suggest it is.

Yes, but a fetus cannot survive outside of the womb until 26 weeks,

To use your logic:

A fetus (baby!) cannot survive without it's mother at 26 weeks old.
A baby also cannot survive without it's mother (or other caregiver?) a month after it's born, does that mean they can still kill it?

In both instances, the mother is feeding the baby and keeping it warm. Also, this baby was never just a "part" of the mother, completely different genetics, blood etc.

A fetus that is comprised of a clump of cells is drastically different than a child that can live off of life support. Yes, a child needs a caregiver after birth, but it can breathe on it's own, eat and drink on it's own, produce waste on it's own. So, it's apples and oranges to say that a fetus/early born child on a ventilator is the same thing as a full term birth.

 

[Bestoutwest]

And while I won't name names, I've known a few women that had legal abortions. They thought they were making the right decision at the time, but it messed them up for years afterwards (emotionally, not physically).

I had a very close friend in college that had one. She didn't get over it for many years and it was something that only a handful of people knew about, the vast majority being medical personnel. It's a horrible thing to have to decide to do. It's not as easy a decision as people like to make it out to be.

 

[HDRider]

Because your mom disagreed with this view of life, you have the opportunity to make this comment.

That's because my parents were at a financial point where they could afford me. And my mother hadn't been raped. And there was not going to be a potential catastrophic event to my mother's health had I been born. Or there was not going to be a life ending, catastrophic medical condition that I was born with that would have resulted in me living a shortened life full of pain and suffering.

Look, we all like to look at abortion like it's this thing that only 25 year old party girls go out and do when they have an oops. In fact, just like most things in life, it's multi-faceted and isn't just cut and dried murder as some like to suggest it is.

Yes, but a fetus cannot survive outside of the womb until 26 weeks,

To use your logic:

A fetus (baby!) cannot survive without it's mother at 26 weeks old.
A baby also cannot survive without it's mother (or other caregiver?) a month after it's born, does that mean they can still kill it?

In both instances, the mother is feeding the baby and keeping it warm. Also, this baby was never just a "part" of the mother, completely different genetics, blood etc.

A fetus that is comprised of a clump of cells is drastically different than a child that can live off of life support. Yes, a child needs a caregiver after birth, but it can breathe on it's own, eat and drink on it's own, produce waste on it's own. So, it's apples and oranges to say that a fetus/early born child on a ventilator is the same thing as a full term birth.

You are correct. This decision has effected 44 million unborn babies from 1970 until 2012.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_ ... ted_States

• Twelve percent of U.S. abortion patients in 2014 were teenagers

• More than half of all abortion patients in 2014 were in their 20s

https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/i ... oC6dXw_wcB

Currently almost 1 million abortions are conducted per year.

 

[TexasBred]

A fetus that is comprised of a clump of cells is drastically different than a child that can live off of life support. Yes, a child needs a caregiver after birth, but it can breathe on it's own, eat and drink on it's own, produce waste on it's own. So, it's apples and oranges to say that a fetus/early born child on a ventilator is the same thing as a full term birth.

Certainly it's not "full term" but it is very easy to tell that it is human !!!!! To me the mother made her choice on "women's health" when she decided to have unprotected sex.

 

[Bestoutwest]

Certainly it's not "full term" but it is very easy to tell that it is human !!!!! To me the mother made her choice on "women's health" when she decided to have unprotected sex.

So does rape count as an OK excuse? What about incest? If the woman is going to die during childbirth, is that still her problem?

 

[HDRider]

Certainly it's not "full term" but it is very easy to tell that it is human !!!!! To me the mother made her choice on "women's health" when she decided to have unprotected sex.

So does rape count as an OK excuse? What about incest? If the woman is going to die during childbirth, is that still her problem?

No, no and both should be saved, but if they can't, the mother would take precedence.

 

[Deepsouth]

"unalienable right to Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

Yes, but a fetus cannot survive outside of the womb until 26 weeks, and that needs massive amounts of medical intervention. So, the real debate becomes when does a fetus become a person? Well, that's a chicken or the egg type of debate that is honestly unanswerable because it's an opinion. It becomes scientific fact vs. religious ideology, and that is why we have the Supreme Court. Whether we like their decision or not, it's one we must live with (just like there are many decisions the Supreme Court has supported that I don't agree with). Personally, I'd rather have abortions be accessible to women because it's cheaper for society and it's safer for the women (which ends up being cheaper for society, too). You can't legislate morality, if you could we wouldn't need prisons.

What do you mean "you can't legislate morality"? Every law legislates morality. You may not agree with it and I may or vise versa. The law may not can force morality, you can break the law, but never the less it still legislates morality.

 

[Deepsouth]

It's murder plain and simple. When an eagle egg is protected and a human is not people have perveted the law.

Not just eagle eggs. Step on a turtles nest on the beach and see what happens.

 

[Deepsouth]

Certainly it's not "full term" but it is very easy to tell that it is human !!!!! To me the mother made her choice on "women's health" when she decided to have unprotected sex.

So does rape count as an OK excuse? What about incest? If the woman is going to die during childbirth, is that still her problem?

Summary: This report reviews available statistics regarding reasons given for obtaining abortions in the United States, including surveys by the Alan Guttmacher Institute and data from seven state health/statistics agencies that report relevant statistics (Arizona, Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Utah). The official data imply that AGI claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape, 0.3%; in cases of incest, 0.03%; in cases of risk to maternal life, 0.1%; in cases of risk to maternal health, 0.8%; and in cases of fetal health issues, 0.5%. About 98.3% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes perhaps 30% for primarily economic reasons and possibly 0.1% each for sex selection and selective reduction of multifetal pregnancies.

 

[Bestoutwest]

Summary: This report reviews available statistics regarding reasons given for obtaining abortions in the United States, including surveys by the Alan Guttmacher Institute and data from seven state health/statistics agencies that report relevant statistics (Arizona, Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Utah). The official data imply that AGI claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape, 0.3%; in cases of incest, 0.03%; in cases of risk to maternal life, 0.1%; in cases of risk to maternal health, 0.8%; and in cases of fetal health issues, 0.5%. About 98.3% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes perhaps 30% for primarily economic reasons and possibly 0.1% each for sex selection and selective reduction of multifetal pregnancies.

1) My point was that there is a faction of society that believes there is absolutely no excuse for abortion, period.

2) Are you willing to support that mother and child through welfare programs after she is forced to have that child? Not every woman that has an abortion got pregnant by having unprotected sex. What may appear, statistically (which we all know are easily manipulated and fantastically flawed historically) as an oops, is in fact a massive decision that this person has had to dwell on. You make it seem as if a girl gets pregnant and then just walks into the clinic the next day like she's buying a new car. Do you know anyone that's had an abortion or do you just make assumptions? As I said before, life is not black and white, there are multiple shades of grey.