Abortion

[HDRider]

Summary: This report reviews available statistics regarding reasons given for obtaining abortions in the United States, including surveys by the Alan Guttmacher Institute and data from seven state health/statistics agencies that report relevant statistics (Arizona, Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Utah). The official data imply that AGI claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape, 0.3%; in cases of incest, 0.03%; in cases of risk to maternal life, 0.1%; in cases of risk to maternal health, 0.8%; and in cases of fetal health issues, 0.5%. About 98.3% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes perhaps 30% for primarily economic reasons and possibly 0.1% each for sex selection and selective reduction of multifetal pregnancies.

1) My point was that there is a faction of society that believes there is absolutely no excuse for abortion, period.

2) Are you willing to support that mother and child through welfare programs after she is forced to have that child? Not every woman that has an abortion got pregnant by having unprotected sex. What may appear, statistically (which we all know are easily manipulated and fantastically flawed historically) as an oops, is in fact a massive decision that this person has had to dwell on. You make it seem as if a girl gets pregnant and then just walks into the clinic the next day like she's buying a new car. Do you know anyone that's had an abortion or do you just make assumptions? As I said before, life is not black and white, there are multiple shades of grey.

There are no national statistics on how many people are waiting to adopt, but experts estimate it is somewhere between one and two million couples.

Every year there are about 1.3 million abortions. Only 4% of women with unwanted pregnancies give their children up for adoption.

http://www.pregnantpause.org/adopt/wanted.htm

 

[greybeard]

I always found it odd, that in all the countless internet discussions on this subject, that I have never seen a single abortion supporter state that they wish they themselves had been aborted.
It's kinda like the old "The world is over populated!" cry. Ever see one of those folks lead by personal example and depopulate the earth by 1?
(You won't either--they want someone else, anyone else--everyone else to do it)

 

[M-5]

Summary: This report reviews available statistics regarding reasons given for obtaining abortions in the United States, including surveys by the Alan Guttmacher Institute and data from seven state health/statistics agencies that report relevant statistics (Arizona, Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Utah). The official data imply that AGI claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape, 0.3%; in cases of incest, 0.03%; in cases of risk to maternal life, 0.1%; in cases of risk to maternal health, 0.8%; and in cases of fetal health issues, 0.5%. About 98.3% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes perhaps 30% for primarily economic reasons and possibly 0.1% each for sex selection and selective reduction of multifetal pregnancies.

1) My point was that there is a faction of society that believes there is absolutely no excuse for abortion, period.

2) Are you willing to support that mother and child through welfare programs after she is forced to have that child? Not every woman that has an abortion got pregnant by having unprotected sex. What may appear, statistically (which we all know are easily manipulated and fantastically flawed historically) as an oops, is in fact a massive decision that this person has had to dwell on. You make it seem as if a girl gets pregnant and then just walks into the clinic the next day like she's buying a new car. Do you know anyone that's had an abortion or do you just make assumptions? As I said before, life is not black and white, there are multiple shades of grey.

By your theory I can just kill any human that inconvenience me or I deem a burden. It's bull shyt when a woman says it's her body. If that was the case it would be a tumor instead of a human. DNA is different from the time it starts it's a life.

 

[boondocks]

Everyone who is against abortion is very much in favor of open access to contraception and education on family planning, right? And you all are in support of social safety nets (programs, agencies, childcare, therapy, medical care, food, clothing, shelter, MONEY) for children who are (inevitably) born to parents who are unable to properly care for them? And you all have personally adopted one of the many thousands of children who are "hard to adopt" and who linger, abandoned and forgotten, in the foster care system (until they age out, and, looking for some sense of family, then create their own when they are wholly unready for it, thereby repeating the cycle)?

I have held a child in her arms whose father tried to kill her. Have you?
Tried to make sense of a boy being stuffed into a garbage can while walking to kindergarten? And watching him as he becomes hardened over the years...?
Tried to explain what Christmas is to a 9 yo girl whose mom is in rehab (but will soon walk out) and whose dad she doesn't know but that's ok, he's in jail and even if he wasn't wouldn't be interested in her...?
Tried to decide which coke-using parent is the lesser of two evils for custody (given the constraints of our child welfare system)?

Once all of the children who we humans have already brought into the world are properly cared for, I promise I will hear you out on this issue.

 

[HDRider]

BD - Tragedies every one.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Yes, but a fetus cannot survive outside of the womb until 26 weeks, and that needs massive amounts of medical intervention. So, the real debate becomes when does a fetus become a person?

95% of the adult population cannot survive on their own these days. Send them out on the prairies and they'll need medical attention "intervention" in no time themselves.

Our constitution was drafted by many. Roe V Wade cannot take the words of one or two preparers (or inputters) and speak for all. To quote one person's definition of "person" does not account for the hundreds of signatures.

 

[Rafter S]

boondocks,

I agree that the situations you described are horrible, but can you honestly say that the world would be a better place if those mistreated children had been aborted?

 

[hurleyjd]

Religious question. Do these fetuses go to heaven. If so might not be a bad thing.

 

[HDRider]

That is wrong on so many levels, so many levels..

 

[boondocks]

boondocks,

I agree that the situations you described are horrible, but can you honestly say that the world would be a better place if those mistreated children had been aborted?

Rafter, that's a false equivalence. These children are obviously here and need taken care of. But does that mean we should bring more children into the same circumstances, or is it more ethical to avoid more suffering?
Take, for example, the little boy stuffed into the garbage can. His mother had, let me count....3 children after him. (Likely more by now. I lost track of her).(And had 3 older children). 2 of them are special needs. She and the fathers raised NONE of them. She was not a "bad" person, but very troubled and addicted. No "fairy godmother" exists to raise those children. No clamoring to adopt them. With subsequent pregnancies, the caseworkers were not even allowed to discuss abortion with her. They had to even tiptoe around birth control, but let's face it, addicts aren't real good with medical compliance.

Another family: bipolar (x2) young parents pregnant with twins. Doing coke, go into labor early. One baby born in a doorway while mother (standing up, at home) doesn't even know she's in labor. Cerebral palsy due to O2 deprivation; sight and vision problems, heart defects, severe mental handicaps...hundreds of thousands in medical procedures, cardiac surgery on preterm infant, NICU bills. State takes kids. The couple (who are bipolar, remember) promptly get pregnant again. Would I have a problem with giving her an early abortion? No. No, I would not.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Certainly it's not "full term" but it is very easy to tell that it is human !!!!! To me the mother made her choice on "women's health" when she decided to have unprotected sex.

So does rape count as an OK excuse? What about incest? If the woman is going to die during childbirth, is that still her problem?

Fairly rare.

 

[greybeard]

Are we advocating abortion in order to prevent 'their' suffering or in order to prevent 'us' from seeing and dealing with it?
(My youngest sister was born with cerebral palsy--I and all that knew her was blessed with her presence here in this world for 28 years--saw her laugh and smile every one of her days except the last 4 when her liver suddenly failed. One of my cousins was born blind, lived into her late 50s until diabetes took her. She enjoyed every day of her life, as did we)
We look for all kinds of reasons and rationalizations to justify murder--by far most of those are 'our' rationalizations--obviously not 'theirs'. 'They' don't get a vote.

 

[Margonme]

Roe versus Wade was deliberated before the Supreme Court because it was a Constitutional issue.  Not because the world wanted to know if it was MORAL.

The question before the court was not: IS IT MORAL TO CONDUCT AN ABORTION?

The question was: IS THE CONDUCT OF AN ABORTION A VIOLATION OF A RIGHT PROTECTED BY THE CONSTITUTION?

The Fifth Amendment of the Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares that “No person shall be … deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.”

The question the court was deliberating is whether a fetus is a PERSON.

Wade made what many consider to be one of the strongest arguments that abortion is a violation of Constitutional promise that a fetus shall not be deprived of the RIGHT to life because it is a PERSON.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Roe versus Wade was deliberated before the Supreme Court because it was a Constitutional issue.  Not because the world wanted to know if it was MORAL.

The question before the court was not: IS IT MORAL TO CONDUCT AN ABORTION?

The question was: IS THE CONDUCT OF AN ABORTION A VIOLATION OF A RIGHT PROTECTED BY THE CONSTITUTION?

The Fifth Amendment of the Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares that “No person shall be … deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.”

The question the court was deliberating is whether a fetus is a PERSON.

Wade made what many consider to be one of the strongest arguments that abortion is a violation of Constitutional promise that a fetus shall not be deprived of the RIGHT to life because it is a PERSON.

Argument makes sense to me.

 

[Margonme]

Roe versus Wade was deliberated before the Supreme Court because it was a Constitutional issue.  Not because the world wanted to know if it was MORAL.

The question before the court was not: IS IT MORAL TO CONDUCT AN ABORTION?

The question was: IS THE CONDUCT OF AN ABORTION A VIOLATION OF A RIGHT PROTECTED BY THE CONSTITUTION?

The Fifth Amendment of the Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares that “No person shall be … deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.”

The question the court was deliberating is whether a fetus is a PERSON.

Wade made what many consider to be one of the strongest arguments that abortion is a violation of Constitutional promise that a fetus shall not be deprived of the RIGHT to life because it is a PERSON.

Argument makes sense to me.

It is not an argument. The objective is to keep this factual. Anyone can provide commentary. Taken from the original post:

Wade argued that the only rational way to understand what the Constitution means by the word “person” was to go to “the teachings at the time the Constitution was framed.” Doing this, he quoted William Blackstone, who is described in Simon & Shuster’s New Millennium Encyclopedia as a “British jurist and legal scholar, whose work Commentaries on the Laws of England was used for more than a century as the foundation of all legal education in Great Britain and the U.S.” As Wade noted, in this work, Blackstone wrote that life is a “right” that “is inherent by nature in every individual, and exists even before the child is born.”

 

[greybeard]

Yeah yeah yeah--you said that already...

. In 1971, the case was argued before the Supreme Court. In 1972, it was argued again.

The U.S. Supreme Court, in a 7-2 ... December 13, 1971 - The case is argued before the U.S. Supreme Court.

Transcript of Oral Arguments Before Court on Abortion Case ... Roe versus Wade's mandate, state and lower Federal courts have repeatedly (blah blah blah)

ade (1973) ruled unconstitutional a state law that banned abortions except to ... The Court argued that the Constitution's First, Fourth, Ninth, and Fourteenth ...

 

[Margonme]

Yeah yeah yeah--you said that already...

. In 1971, the case was argued before the Supreme Court. In 1972, it was argued again.

The U.S. Supreme Court, in a 7-2 ... December 13, 1971 - The case is argued before the U.S. Supreme Court.

Transcript of Oral Arguments Before Court on Abortion Case ... Roe versus Wade's mandate, state and lower Federal courts have repeatedly (blah blah blah)

ade (1973) ruled unconstitutional a state law that banned abortions except to ... The Court argued that the Constitution's First, Fourth, Ninth, and Fourteenth ...

Roe and Wade did enough arguing. I am performing as a facilitator. Here is my original suggestion:

Read if you want something to think about:

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Dang Rondo, I'm not arguing either. The second word in your own original post said "argued" as in "Wade argued".

Frankly there are some who think Margaret Sanger was a genius.

 

[Dave]

I work with two people who were both born in the '50 before Roe vs Wade. They were both adopted. Had abortion been legal then they might not be here now. One is very much against abortion with the exception of when the woman's life is in danger. The other is in favor of abortion. I have said to him that if it had been legal back then he might not be here now. That argument doesn't seem to bother him in the least.

 

[Margonme]

Dang Rondo, I'm not arguing either. The second word in your own original post said "argued" as in "Wade argued".

Frankly there are some who think Margaret Sanger was a genius.

I have argued that my whole life.