A good old bull, part one.

[Jake]

Dylan, let us talk weather.

I enjoyed the beginning of this thread. The information you provided was interesting. I lived in Casper, WY from 1981 to 1987. I lived in Helena, MT from 1987 to 2005. I saw some hard winters. I think Wyoming was worse than MT. The high plains, wind, you understand. I got up into Alberta many times. Took my son to Calgary (what a nice city). Took him to the dinosaur digs in eastern Alberta, etc. I hunted on the Peace River.

I saw lots of Black Angus in MT. I was always impressed with their endurance for the winters. Do you do anything to protect your cattle in the Winter? What time of year do you calf?

I was raised here in KY. But I spent 33 years in the Rocky Mtns. I didn't mention CO. This may surprise you. The winter we just went throught here in KY was as bad as any winter I spent out west. Let me explain. In the Rocky Mtns., you get low wind chills and ambient temperatures but it is dry for the most part. The sun almost always comes out and if you get out of the wind and in the sun, it can be very nice. Here, it is damp cold and you can go for 10 days and not see the sun. When storms come in, it may rain first, the cattle get wet to the skin, then the temperatures drop. It killed me seeing my cows wet and as cold as it was this winter. I baby my cows and I did a lot of things to help them cope. I did not lose a single animal. My neighbor lost 3 cows out of a herd only slightly bigger than mine.

My point is: what you get in lower temperatures, we make up for in dampness. What say you?

I would take -10 and dry any day over 30 and wet. All day, any day and twice on Sunday.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Dylan, let us talk weather.

I enjoyed the beginning of this thread. The information you provided was interesting. I lived in Casper, WY from 1981 to 1987. I lived in Helena, MT from 1987 to 2005. I saw some hard winters. I think Wyoming was worse than MT. The high plains, wind, you understand. I got up into Alberta many times. Took my son to Calgary (what a nice city). Took him to the dinosaur digs in eastern Alberta, etc. I hunted on the Peace River.

I saw lots of Black Angus in MT. I was always impressed with their endurance for the winters. Do you do anything to protect your cattle in the Winter? What time of year do you calf?

I was raised here in KY. But I spent 33 years in the Rocky Mtns. I didn't mention CO. This may surprise you. The winter we just went throught here in KY was as bad as any winter I spent out west. Let me explain. In the Rocky Mtns., you get low wind chills and ambient temperatures but it is dry for the most part. The sun almost always comes out and if you get out of the wind and in the sun, it can be very nice. Here, it is damp cold and you can go for 10 days and not see the sun. When storms come in, it may rain first, the cattle get wet to the skin, then the temperatures drop. It killed me seeing my cows wet and as cold as it was this winter. I baby my cows and I did a lot of things to help them cope. I did not lose a single animal. My neighbor lost 3 cows out of a herd only slightly bigger than mine.

My point is: what you get in lower temperatures, we make up for in dampness. What say you?

I would take -10 and dry any day over 30 and wet. All day, any day and twice on Sunday.

Inyati, our challenge here is the wind chill factor. - 40 isn't that bad, because it is dry here, if the wind isn't blowing. Every winter here is a bit different. Last winter set in the end of Oct and didn't relent until the 3rd week in April. we had extended cold, daytime highs -20C for weeks on end, and night time lows of -30c. Inever got real cold the low here this winter was only -38C, but combined with the wind chill factored in it was in the -50C's with a low of -54C. We have had substantially more severe cold in the past. The shelter the cattle here are wind break slab fence shelters for wind protection. Our bulls had good protection from the wind but even they got frost bite on their scrotums last winter. Nothing that damaged semen quality thankfully.

We calve May and June. I am not interested in fighting inclement weather when calving. We calve our cows and heifers on the range in pastures ranging from 300 to 700 acres. Calving ease is a strong selection focus. We ride and tag see very few calves born. This year we only hand assisted one heifer this year, my third daughter was concerned the tongue was starting to protrude and so got off her horse and slowly walked up and got on the ground and grabbed ahold of the front feet and that was all the assistance needed to pop the head out. This was a purchased commercial heifer, sired by a bull of ours but bred to a red poll bull. there were 60 msome heifers calving this year, next year it will be 100 or more. Calving ease is essential in our management and I am prepared to sacrifice growth. Most of our calves are in the low 70's from our heifers.

As regards wet, I have had really only one actual experience with that which was back in 1992, we were still calving in April. The cows were out on range, we were just getting started calving. and a spring storm started in that was not forecast. It was April 27. It started as rain and turned to snow accompanied by a 65 mph wind gusts. The cattle all drifted to the south boundary, and the ground there was a hard pan type clay that turned quickly to mud. The calves were popping out like crazy and as fast as we could put them in a trailer and get them to the shop we were. Lost 10 calves, from hypothermia, visibility was almost nil, Had no idea who most of the calves belonged to . The storm went on for 18 hrs or so. It took three weeks to get everyone mothered up with a cow, Had over 30 calves in the shop at one time.

What I do remember is this one little old black angus cow 38P who went north into the wind on her own in that storm went a half a mile over a hill, a hill to us, maybe a rise to most, and found a buck brush patch to calve in. The buck brush is about a foot to a foot and a half tall and thick and provides good protection from the wind. She kept her calf in that buck brush the whole storm and it was in good shape when she led us to it a day later after the storm subsided. That is the kind of maternal instinct for survival that I have always admired about the good maternal Angus cattle. To have the intelligence to protect their calves from the elements. She was the only cow that did that calved during the storm. I still have her granddaughters in the herd. EPD's don't help much when it comes to measuring and or predicting that kind of maternal behavior.

At any rate cold, wet to the bone and windy is miserable indeed. I will take cold, windy and dry any day. The length of the cold here is what is hard to take, but still manageable none the less.

 

[branguscowgirl]

I have to say, I do not envy you folks that endure that kind of weather! You have big beautiful country, but I really do like our CA sunshine! :mrgreen:
Right now, we are HOT here (105). However, extremes either way here never really last for very long.
I guess that I am a wuss! :cowboy:

 

[inyati13]

Thanks, Dylan. I enjoyed that story about the little angus cow who took her calf to the buck brush. The things I see everyday on the farm is what still gets me excited to get out every morning.

 

[Nesikep]

We had a small angusish cow that hid her calf really well when we had a lot of scours... well, hers didn't get it.. heck we hardly saw it until it was 2 weeks old! I'll take cold and dry over wet any day as well, I find about -10C a perfect temp for the whole winter.. cold enough there's no mud anywhere, but not so cold as to make it unbearable. That being said, I'm a sucker for warmth.. it was 90F here today (34C) and it was AWESOME!.. a heavy cut of hay dries in just over 2 days. I am expecting 3 calves in the next month, they might have a bit of a hard time with the heat and I'm going to have to watch them real close.
As for cold, -25C is about as cold as it gets here, sometimes with wind, but that's about my limit... granted we only get 2 hours of sun on the sunny days here, which makes it harder to deal with too

 

[Chuckie]

I enjoyed looking at the bull and I really like him. I bet he does have a bunch of dandy daughters. Such a masculine bull should produce some feminine females.
He's got a hump on his neck that a camel would be envious of!

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Branguscowgirl, I am more of a wuss regarding our miserable winters every year. The good part is we aren't being over run by folks that want to move here.

Inyati, glad to hear the prospect of awe and inspiration in the outdoor world keep you motivated! Sometimes my motivation needs some extra inspiration, but I must admit I feel blessed to live the life I do, outside everyday with cattle and horses and all the sights of mother nature.

Chuckie, I would be liar if I told you all his daughters are dandies, they aren't. The percentage of his daughters though that have developed into sound, fertile and functional cows make him a bull that I am very glad I kept and used. The breadth of traits that make for complete maternal functionality make it a challenge for most bulls to produce a high percentage of good functional females. I have used many bulls over the last 29 years, plenty of popular AI sires touted as maternal bulls and for whatever reason few have lived up to their billing. One would think that the strong maternal heritage of the Angus breed would make the production of consistently sound functional mother cows a cinch, that has not been my experience. In my opinion part of that challenge as I see it is the loss of maternal focus in the breed over the last 35 years in pursuit of the quest to make the Angus breed a breed that can be all things to the industry. From maternal, calving ease, growth, and carcass excellence all wrapped up in one package. The inherent biological antagonisms in that broad selection approach slows overall progress and or dilutes consistency of function in individual areas of function.

 

[Nesikep]

I think you hit the nail pretty square on the head... Around here we all say there's no one type of cow that is perfect for everyone, in dryland the heavy producers will come home open, and in lush pastures the dryland performers would get fat while raising dinks. We have always liked to look for bulls from harsher climates than ours, we always look North before looking South. Have you found that some cows can raise awesome steers, but can never raise a good heifer no matter how many times they try? I can't remember one cow that would consistently raise a good heifer, but fail at a steer.

 

[Chuckie]

Not all calves from a bull will be perfect, but he does have a good percentage of girls that are doing a good job, right? When I see bulls with that much testosterone, with that huge neck and shoulders, it seems the report follows that they produce great cows. I love to look at a pretty bull.
I really like the huge shoulders and neck he has. I just don't see that much any more.

 

[inyati13]

Branguscowgirl, I am more of a wuss regarding our miserable winters every year. The good part is we aren't being over run by folks that want to move here.

Inyati, glad to hear the prospect of awe and inspiration in the outdoor world keep you motivated! Sometimes my motivation needs some extra inspiration, but I must admit I feel blessed to live the life I do, outside everyday with cattle and horses and all the sights of mother nature.

Chuckie, I would be liar if I told you all his daughters are dandies, they aren't. The percentage of his daughters though that have developed into sound, fertile and functional cows make him a bull that I am very glad I kept and used. The breadth of traits that make for complete maternal functionality make it a challenge for most bulls to produce a high percentage of good functional females. I have used many bulls over the last 29 years, plenty of popular AI sires touted as maternal bulls and for whatever reason few have lived up to their billing. One would think that the strong maternal heritage of the Angus breed would make the production of consistently sound functional mother cows a cinch, that has not been my experience. In my opinion part of that challenge as I see it is the loss of maternal focus in the breed over the last 35 years in pursuit of the quest to make the Angus breed a breed that can be all things to the industry. From maternal, calving ease, growth, and carcass excellence all wrapped up in one package. The inherent biological antagonisms in that broad selection approach slows overall progress and or dilutes consistency of function in individual areas of function.

Dylan, the underlined passage is the source of my comment. There was a comment on CT made by AllForage who at times was a bit of a "fire brand" but he made a statement that I have held on to. He said, "Cows always disappoint". I have come to appreciate that. I have a small herd of cows and some come with fine pedigrees, but everyone of them given enough time will demonstrate a weakness. The udder, the feet, the quantity of milk (too much or too little), the quality of the calf, disposition, etc.

 

[East Caney]

Dylan,

That's a good looking bull with good looking offspring. It would be hard not to be proud to have raised such good looking cattle. Having good neighbors in the cattle business is probably second only to having good pasture. You seem to have a good relationship with your neighbors. We all know that every bit of advice ever given (e.g. telling a neighbor to sell his bull) isn't sound. I'm certainly not getting rid of a first time offender for chasing the girls through a fence. If he isn't chasing me or running away with his head held high, then he likely has no disposition problem.

Again, good looking cattle. That bull has done some good for you and maybe your neighbors as well.

EC

 

[Hereford76]

My work is to stabilize these traits within my population and be able to consistently pass these along through the sires selected with a high degree of repeatability.

would be interested to see/hear about results of your work. also curious if you think you'll ever to a point where you'd be satisfied? you talked about one cow out of a few dozen that calved during the spring storm that took care of her calf... so what is the end goal, when they all do it?

this is a son? got any other pictures of him?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Dylan, the underlined passage is the source of my comment. There was a comment on CT made by AllForage who at times was a bit of a "fire brand" but he made a statement that I have held on to. He said, "Cows always disappoint". I have come to appreciate that.
Cows don't disappoint, people do...I put more pressure on myself. Than I do my cattle...the decisions I make are the result of what they are....

 

[greybeard]

M It has nothing to do with disposition and everything to do with libido.

If he isn't chasing me or running away with his head held high, then he likely has no disposition problem.

I agree 100%.

I'm the one that posted the pic of the wet swimming white bull that had just run into the hot wire. That bull is extremely docile--first one in the pen, me or anyone else can do anything needed with him in open pasture, he doesn't fight you or tear up pens or chutes. Never goes thru fences for a bit of greener forage.
BUT, let estrus get in the air, and he's not going to be deterred from his natural hormonal mission in life very easily. That's libido--not a bad disposition. If I had to make the choice between one that had a lower libido and one with a higher one, I'll take the higher one every time, as long as both had equally good dispositions.

To the OP, that's a nice looking bull and some good looking offspring--both the males and daughters..

 

[Ozhorse]

Thank you for posting pictures of your bull and his offspring. I admire stock that can perform the way he has, and pass it on, and still be a grand old fellow at 10.

I also enjoyed your descriptions of where you live and what the cattle have to live through. For Australia we are in about as cold an area as it gets for cattle. It is good to know that my cattle can probably handle worse conditions than we have here, and that is what Angus cattle do. I also got a lot out of your descriptions of what you look for in your cows. It can be a bit of work to stay on course when one is a newbie like me, when one gets somewhat conflicting advice on where to go with the cattle breeding program.

I can appreciate what a grand old bull he is and I can see why you would want him to share with us.