If you were starting over

Going to try to keep this as short as possible..

I am in the process of purchasing 113 acres, roughly 90 being pasture, that I am planning to start my own CC operation on in Northwest Arkansas. The place is split by a county road with 35ac (~25ac pasture) on one side, and 78ac (~65ac pasture) on the other. This all started as a pipe-dream, as I grew up on a cattle farm in north central Arkansas and greatly miss farming. My wife and I are both employed by Tyson Foods in NWA and don't see ourselves moving back home any time soon so I started looking in my options and found out about beginning farmer/rancher loan options through USDA/FSA. There really are some great opportunities if you are able to make it through the gauntlet of obtaining govt funding. lol

My questions are:

1) What would your business model look like if you were wanting to be as profitable as possible with 90ac of pasture and cattle? (CC? Stocker Calves? What breed(s)?)
2) What are some of the practices I could use to get the most "bang for my buck"? (Rotational grazing etc...)



I am really looking forward to starting an operation of my own, as I didn't have a whole lot of "say-so" when it came to the family farm. Things like calving seasons, bull purchases made solely on calving ease, regular culling are all topics that I feel one way about, but often my dad would disagree with. Dad is one who owns cattle simply because it pays for land, which is not altogether wrong.. He has a successful career outside of farming and it takes priority over the organization/efficiency of the farm. I also realize that this is a tough time to be buying a herd, but it is what it is. Working in the heart of the protein industry, I feel pretty confident in the market remaining hot for a least one of my calf crops.

Thank you all!

RzrbkFarmer58 said:

Going to try to keep this as short as possible..

I am in the process of purchasing 113 acres, roughly 90 being pasture, that I am planning to start my own CC operation on in Northwest Arkansas. The place is split by a county road with 35ac (~25ac pasture) on one side, and 78ac (~65ac pasture) on the other. This all started as a pipe-dream, as I grew up on a cattle farm in north central Arkansas and greatly miss farming. My wife and I are both employed by Tyson Foods in NWA and don't see ourselves moving back home any time soon so I started looking in my options and found out about beginning farmer/rancher loan options through USDA/FSA. There really are some great opportunities if you are able to make it through the gauntlet of obtaining govt funding. lol

My questions are:

1) What would your business model look like if you were wanting to be as profitable as possible with 90ac of pasture and cattle? (CC? Stocker Calves? What breed(s)?)
2) What are some of the practices I could use to get the most "bang for my buck"? (Rotational grazing etc...)



I am really looking forward to starting an operation of my own, as I didn't have a whole lot of "say-so" when it came to the family farm. Things like calving seasons, bull purchases made solely on calving ease, regular culling are all topics that I feel one way about, but often my dad would disagree with. Dad is one who owns cattle simply because it pays for land, which is not altogether wrong.. He has a successful career outside of farming and it takes priority over the organization/efficiency of the farm. I also realize that this is a tough time to be buying a herd, but it is what it is. Working in the heart of the protein industry, I feel pretty confident in the market remaining hot for a least one of my calf crops.

Thank you all!

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I don’t have any answers for you but look forward to hearing others’ responses. Good luck!

Maybe build chicken (broiler) houses and home on the 35 acre side. Cow/calf or stockers on the 78 acre side. "Free fertilizer" that way and shared equipment for both operations. More consistent and regular cash flow maybe. Broilers and cows here are generally a good combination.

I imagine buying land in NW Arkansas ain't cheap but it is a good investment. Should be a good market there for freezer beef. It's a bit more time consuming and you have to run less cows due to holding over calves to finish. Right now with the prices like they are it's just as profitable to sell at the barn but if prices go back to normal freezer beef is more profitable.

I would think that NWA market has enough demand for niche beef (grass finished, no vaccines, organic, hand/farm raised etc) you might be better off finding someone who has already done all the marketing and has a business selling a certain type of beef to local markets and then ask to be a producer for them. They might supply the calves and you just raise em on your grass for a rate. They would have the answers to the questions of "when to vax, what breed, what feeding practices, what mineral" etc.

If it were me, I would go to the farmers market and talk to the folks selling beef. See if any are looking for cooperative producers and you might find someone looking to get into a partnership.

I personally think the biggest money is in seed stock, but if you are just starting out that is a tough row to hoe. All this to say; I am only about a year ahead of you in this journey and I started with cheap cheap bred corriente cows. Sold calves at the sale barn. The sire dictated if the calf brought beef money or roper calf money.... So it's a bit of a gamble. I also over grazed and over stocked and didn't rotate often enough and bought hay that was over priced....so at a minimum we certainly will get some help on our taxes with our Schedule F this year (read as: we weren't profitable). But we did pretty good and learned some stuff and are moving forward. Whatever you go with, just be prepared to modify your plans as you go and ALWAYS take everything on this forum with a grain of salt. And keep us updated on your progress

How many head do you plan on running? I only ask because it would definitely affect how I operated.

Lucky said:

How many head do you plan on running? I only ask because it would definitely affect how I operated.

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So here is one of the more interesting parts of this FSA deal... they take no consideration of how "stout" you are as an individual/family off the farm. Therefore, you have to show a business plan on paper that is profitable. They consider 2ac/head to be accurate which I think is absolutely bizarre. I will likely end up owning ~50 cows, with at least 10-15 of them being ran on the family farm back home. which will leave me 35-40 spring calving cows. I am definitely planning to have a grazing rotation to maintain pasture quality. Attached is a picture of what the large majority of the pasture looks like (better than 95% of our north central Arkansas ground). I will do everything in my power to keep the grass quality.

simme said:

Maybe build chicken (broiler) houses and home on the 35 acre side. Cow/calf or stockers on the 78 acre side. "Free fertilizer" that way and shared equipment for both operations. More consistent and regular cash flow maybe. Broilers and cows here are generally a good combination.

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I would not be opposed to the broiler/poultry in general idea... I just have ZERO experience in anything besides managing a poultry further processing facility. I would imagine there is more govt funding behind getting broiler houses built? Really is appealing, just have no past involvement.

RzrbkFarmer58 said:

I would not be opposed to the broiler/poultry in general idea... I just have ZERO experience in anything besides managing a poultry further processing facility. I would imagine there is more govt funding behind getting broiler houses built? Really is appealing, just have no past involvement.

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In this area, no government funding for building the poultry houses best I know. Just lots and lots of permitting issues (mostly state issues and state dependent). After they are built, NRCS has money for energy upgrades years down the road and money for litter storage sheds.

When you said Tyson in Arkansas, I suspected you were already in the "chicken business". And already aware of the sort of "symbiotic" love/hate relationship between growers and the integrators. It's pretty consistent income.

I've been fortunate to build a properties and different things for myself and others. The first ones were definitely a learning curve and I took the long way around.

One of my big ones is I do not buy cheap cows with the delusion breeding up. The other is buying cows all spread out on calving if you intend to have a calving season. Don't go crazy on registered cows or heifers or a sales pitch but buy quality. Buy once, cry once. Keep data on those cows. It all revolves around them.

The other is be careful with equipment and things that pay over long periods of time. Buying equipmemt that saves you money in 10 years doesnt do any good of you dont make it to 10 years. I like to start with cash flow in mind. If I can't pay some one else to haul the cows, or shred the field, and still make money, I can't afford to pay myself to do it. Invest in long terms saving with the cash flow. Don't trick yourself in to thinking... I can do this cheaper and then I will make money.

Lastly, you can't spend all your time in the pasture. If you don't log the hours on the spreadsheets or with the pen and pad accounting for every thing and analyzing where the dollars are going you will have a hard time. It's hard to out earn your inefficiency in this business, long term.

https://www.grass-fed-solutions.com/42-day-cattle-breeding-season.html

I am in Upstate NY - GREAT grazing 6 months of the year. So I have to have 6 months worth of hay. I own 160 ac (30 hay ground & pasture - 75 pasture & sacrifice winter areas - 50+ wooded) and lease 50 acres of hay ground. This provides roughly 50 cows pasture and hay all year. I only own the spears on my 1 old tractor as my "hay equipment". Fortunate to have a VERY reliable hay crew - getting 1st & 2nd cutting.
My little farm pays all the bills - but, I am a purebred Simmental breeder with national reputation - my males are my cash flow - all males born Jan/Feb (calving season) are sold in October as breeding bulls or steers. Heifers are my money makers, but only if someone is willing to pay the asking price.
Don't own any equipment you don't HAVE to have. Cheaper to buy hay outright - or contract someone to hay your own ground (but with that many cows, I don't see you raising your hay) - that is IF you need hay???

I was in a hurry but I'm excited for you. It's a blank canvas. Good luck. Keep us updated.

Brute 23 said:

I was in a hurry but I'm excited for you. It's a blank canvas. Good luck. Keep us updated.

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I sure will. Thank you for your input! The point about buying good cattle to start with is one that I needed to hear. I have always been a bargain shopper, which has done me well in real estate, but I know it would bite me big time if my goal was to pick them off 1 by 1 at the barn. There are so many cattle traders these days that I don't know where I should be looking, and they all seem to be "off one farm" or "complete sell out" deals. Any advice there? I would love to buy pairs, knowing what the animals are capable of, but not sure I want to fork over nearly $4k per

If I was you, I would "invest" as much time as possible into regenerative farming opportunities... field days, workshops, farmer gatherings... even if they're not specifically geared toward "pasturing" (most "soil health" events at least POINT the participants toward that... even though at least up here, the focus is much more toward row crop production). The "networking opportunities" they provide you with, engaging with other grazing practitioners directly, is priceless. Look into Understanding Ag's website, their Soil Health Academy opportunities and grazing schools, etc., they'll give you lots of really good management information, and hook you up with mentors who will be glad to share information with you and give you advice. Here's a link to an article posted on their website that I wrote for them: Will I really benefit from grazing my cover crop? Go to their "Resources" tab, and you'll find LOTS of information available there. Sign up for their email updates... here's an example of another article that just came across mine this morning from them: The Cheapest Hay is the Hay You Never Buy. I'm also a board member for Minnesota Grazing Lands Conservation Association... your organization there in Arkansas is Arkansas Grazing Lands Coalition, and Carson Horn is their coordinator, [email protected] . They also put on field days, and farmer groups, etc. Our local SWCD also just recently organized a local "grazing group", and we meet to network together about quarterly, share information, each member will do a presentation at some point to share with the group what they do and why, etc. Mostly for the networking... that's the most important benefit of being involved with any of these IMO.

Stay away from as much "overhead investment" as you possibly can! You don't need much... depending on how you operate. Don't "overgraze" or "overstock"! This year, I added about 40% more acres to my pasture, which allowed me to put my cattle on another area during the late growing season, and let my main pasture area, which typically was overstocked, "rest" for a full 90 days. This was a very dry period here this year, so in order to get that 90 days rest, and not overgraze the pasture that they were on, I still chose to FEED HAY to my herd on that other pasture from Sept. 1- late October (45 days)... But because I did that, my home pasture has now been able to carry my herd from Oct. 24 until now... on that stockpiled feed, and they're still not wanting to eat baled hay! That's the cheapest feed I could have ever been giving them, for sure (so that link above is on the money!!!). If you overstock, and don't PLAN to allow yourself this option, you'll end up feeding WAY longer. I'm not in Arkansas, but being in Minnesota, where most set stock graziers generally figure that they'll be feeding from Oct. 1- May 25th or so... I'm SO far ahead of the game this year, all because I fed for those 45 days during the growing season. This is the latest that I've ever been able to go without feeding... and I'm always trying my best to "manage" right, ...daily moves all growing season long, minimum 45 days of rest between grazes, never take more than half, unrolling bales across the pastures when I'm feeding, etc. Now, being in Arkansas, you should be able to grow much later into the season, and earlier in the season..., and therefore, with proper management, you should be able to cut out most of your winter feeding requirements entirely.

These learning opportunities, and networking opportunities through these organizations, are your best investment. Iron is "bad"... but some is, or at least may be necessary. Water is necessary, but most tend to "over-invest" in it, IMO. You can walk cattle to water. My one pasture is 230 acres, running about 300 head through the summer (cows, calves, yearlings and bulls). I've been working with 2 tire tank waterers on that whole thing... but I AM going to install a shallow buried line and put a couple more tire tanks on it next spring, so I don't have to walk them so far. The issue isn't the walking for the cattle though... the cattle are fine, and it's probably good for them... it's the amount of cowpaths that I end up with on rolling ground... so it can tend to want to wash there some. I put my "permanent subdivision fences" generally on the contour, and then they use the headlands on the ends to go from one strip to the next... and those headlands, when they have to walk over a mile, can get alot of traffic. I'll put a tire tank every so far in the headland on the one end (goal is to have one for every 3 strips, strips are 220'W x 1/2 mile long)... and then they will only have to walk at most about a half mile back across the strip they're on, and then over to the waterer in the headland of the middle strip. I BUILD these tire tanks, just the necessary plumbing, an excavator tire, and a little cement in the bottom. It's ideas like these that you'll get from "networking" with other producers... just like you're doing here now on CT.

Keep it up, and I wish you well!!! If you want to get in touch with me, I'd be happy to talk as well. John Meyer

If I were starting over, I'd just get temporarily banned and make up a new username.

RzrbkFarmer58 said:

I sure will. Thank you for your input! The point about buying good cattle to start with is one that I needed to hear. I have always been a bargain shopper, which has done me well in real estate, but I know it would bite me big time if my goal was to pick them off 1 by 1 at the barn. There are so many cattle traders these days that I don't know where I should be looking, and they all seem to be "off one farm" or "complete sell out" deals. Any advice there? I would love to buy pairs, knowing what the animals are capable of, but not sure I want to fork over nearly $4k per

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IF... you want to do C/c, I'd suggest focusing on older bred cows with a calf at side, particularly at a herd dispersal. These are proven animals from an older existing "successful" herd. He kept them for a reason, he's not selling them because they're his culls. They've got one on the way, and one at side... and she's known "fertile", and experienced. Two calves right away means income coming back to you more quickly. Don't overload at the start... buy a few good proven cows, preferably "commercial cows"... so you don't need papers on them, unless you want to get into the seed stock thing. Work your numbers up from there as you can. Starting out, I'd aim for the freezer market, personally.

@RzrbkFarmer58, welcome to the forum! and welcome to the cattle business as well.

You've started with the feds in getting a farm loan, but you went to the 'dark' side of the USDA, the FSA (just kidding). Convert to the "Rebellion" and now go to the good of the USDA and work with the NRCS on a grazing plan. (OK, enough Star Wars references). I'm a Grazing Specialist with the NRCS and write grazing plans all day long. (Well, not as many as I used to but now I train others).

In terms of rotational grazing, you will want a minimum of 5 separate paddocks to rotate your herd through, so keep that in mind for permanent fencing. Review the "Four Never Fail Rules of Grazing". You can read book after book after book about rotational grazing, but this "Half Page" list of rules will tell you 95% of what you need to know about grazing/pasture management you need to get started. It was designed to be exceedingly simple and easy to comprehend.

The stand of grass that you have there looks to be in good shape. Get a soil test and I would say a minimum of two soil tests, one for each side of the road. Take note of the pH and adjust this if it needs adjusted before you ever fertilize. The pH has an effect on what the soil test shows is in the soil. It also affects the availability of nutrients to the plant.

You asked about cow/calf vs stockers. That's very much an individual choice. You talked quite a bit more about the CC. If you want to focus on a specific breed/mix, find a producer that has those. If you are after quality animals, stay away from the sale barn. I'm not saying its bad, but it is 'pot luck' and you have to remember that all the problem animals get brought there to be 'disposed of'. Overall, raising stockers will most likely give you the biggest profit and the fastest return. Also understand that stockers are a 'bunch of rowdy teenagers' that can be harder to manage than a 'laid back' cow.

Starting out, I would create a herd that would be composed of a "3 way cross" for hybrid vigor if I was going cow/calf.

I'll add that if you are needing stock tanks, fencing, seeding, brush management, paid for rotational grazing, other practices, the NRCS awards contracts with cost share for these practices based off your grazing management plan.

If I was working a full time town job and lived someplace with good access to markets, I would invest in good fence and a water system. I'd buy weaned calves in the spring and rotate them thru the growing season, then ship them in the fall/winter when you can't graze.

No winter feeding, no worrying about calves when your at work, no worrying about calves when your trying to sleep, etc.

Freezer market is great if you like marketing and selling yourself as well as have the energy/time to deal with the general public.

RzrbkFarmer58 said:

I sure will. Thank you for your input! The point about buying good cattle to start with is one that I needed to hear. I have always been a bargain shopper, which has done me well in real estate, but I know it would bite me big time if my goal was to pick them off 1 by 1 at the barn. There are so many cattle traders these days that I don't know where I should be looking, and they all seem to be "off one farm" or "complete sell out" deals. Any advice there? I would love to buy pairs, knowing what the animals are capable of, but not sure I want to fork over nearly $4k per

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I agree a lot with the above post about not over stocking, staying away from equipment, hay etc, if you can. It may not be an option, I'm not familiar with that area. I do honestly believe that is the future. More head does not mean more money. That is a very big misconception.

The networking suggestion is golden also. If I could buy from and individual where I could see there cattle and operation and results, I would even take heifers.

This is going to stir the chit but my brother and I bought some weaned calves. Some heifers and steers. We turned them out with a few cows we had. We will sell them this spring. There are some heifers in the group that we will basically buy off ourself at that time. They will be ready for a bull at the same time our current cows are. We plan to rent a bull. We are trying to cash flow and roll the money to grow. Time will tell on if it was worth it.

Herd sell outs are probably a good idea also.

I don't buy many cattle off sites or FB or any thing like that. What we don't raise is bought from people we know or recommend by word of mouth from friends.