If you were starting over

[Dave]

I knew Chris personally. We both rode bareback bronc at the same time and at some of the same rodeos. He was a couple years older than me. The song with that line is a story about him hurrying to get to Cheyenne on time to get on his bronc. The line if I had it to do over again I wouldn't have drove so slow, is at the end of the song.

 

[Chapin81]

Since I have a cow calf operation make sure you cull your less productive cows. My parents kept everything including our less productive cattle and now I am on a mission to search and cull unfortunately my weaning weights are not on par with that we have here in the . But in still profitable.

 

[blackladies]

Here's a thought...

If your goal is a good herd full of fertility, longevity, and decent weaning weights, you might want to buy one and dones. Bred cows that are being culled simply because they've aged out and someone is getting rid of them to be replaced with younger cows.

If you can find anyone around you that have animals you admire, you could drop in and ask them what they do when they cull, and if they sell everything at 10 years old or so you might ask them if you can save them the sale barn commission and buy them direct. If they don't want to do that but they will still be selling through the auction you can ask if they could give you a call so you can bid on them.

I've had great experience with raising replacement heifers from old cows that have proven themselves. People keep their best cows as long as they can, and smooth mouth/broken mouth cows can raise a calf just like them... and go back to the auction to be sold for what you paid for them. Keep the best heifers and sell everything else.

One and dones can be dangerous if you don't have the experience yet. That was my first go around. Good mommas but there are a lot of things that can go wrong if you don't know what to look for. You're not going to fix johnes if that's why they were brought to the barn for. Will agree 100% if you know what you are doing they can be a good deal. Don't want to sour someone on cattle with a bad first go.

 

[blackladies]

Oh. ok. Not a problem. There is a thread (I think I created 2 actually) with the rules posted some time back.

Here is a copy of the document before it was ever published.

I've made slight modifications when talking about them and typing them out from time to time, but the concepts are solid. I have modified the 30 days to 28 days, The 3 inches to 4 inches from time to time, and the 'cool season grasses' to just 'tame' grasses to include warm season grasses that are sod formers (Bermuda, Bahia, St. Augustine in particular).

The initial publication was in "On Pasture" several years ago, with some column writers adopting the rules and making a few personal modifications to them on occasion. The rules are meant to be simple and all encompassing, a concept some individuals don't understand. The purpose of developing these in this manner was to provide a 'new' rotational grazer with something simple, easy to understand/remember, and rock solid. They can be greatly expanded upon and made more complex for 'experienced' rotational grazers. The complex versions make beginners eyes glaze over and give up on ever understanding rotational grazing.

The four never fail rules of grazing
(cool season grasses)

​

Never let seed heads form on plants. This will stunt growth later in the season if it occurs. 1​

Never let livestock graze more than 7 continuous days on a pasture. 2​

Never graze closer than 3 inches. 3​

Never return to a pasture in less than 30 days. 4​

Exceptions to the rules- USE CAUTIOUSLY!!

Warm Season grasses in the Western half of the US behave differently than cool season grasses in the East. These plants may require the formation of seed heads to survive. Consult a grazing specialist before deciding to graze warm season grasses, ANYWHERE! Their growth and survival requirements are very different from cool season grasses. Although, they do provide some very important benefits when used in conjunction with cool season grasses.

Grazing more than 7 continuous days results in animals regrazing plants that have resumed growth after being grazed off. These plants are targeted because they are more tender and succulent. This grazing pattern results in decreased vigor and loss of the most desirable plants in a pasture and spot grazing. However, grazing in a pasture for more than 7 consecutive days will not result in selective grazing if the plants are dormant. This occurs during the winter months and also during drought. Both of these are time periods when extended rest may be desirable over continued rotation.

Grazing closer than three inches can be used, and should be, when broadcast seeding is done for an existing pasture. The short grass promotes better seed to soil contact. Closer than a three inch grazing height is inefficient for cattle and results in reduced intake, which means lower weight gains, which means decreased profit. Grazing an actively growing plant closer than three inches will compromise its regrowth ability and lower its vigor. However, grazing a dormant plant closer than a three inch grazing height will not have near the adverse effect as an actively growing plant. This can be particularly important to know during a drought when forage may be scarce, but, plants are dormant. Don't turn the pasture into a dustbowl. Avoid crown damage and uprooting of plants.

It may be required that livestock are returned to a pasture before 30 days in rare springtime circumstances where the spring flush is particularly vigorous. This is required to prevent seed head formation, first in the list of general rules, and maintain growth throughout the year instead of getting all of your production at once. Extreme cases may actually require mowing to prevent seed head development due to rapid growth.

If your wanting the pasture to reseed itself could you let seed heads form? With the knowledge that it would hurt the total output of the pasture, but would put seeds in the seed bank.

 

[Dave]

One and dones can be dangerous if you don't have the experience yet. That was my first go around. Good mommas but there are a lot of things that can go wrong if you don't know what to look for. You're not going to fix johnes if that's why they were brought to the barn for. Will agree 100% if you know what you are doing they can be a good deal. Don't want to sour someone on cattle with a bad first go.

You are right about that. A person also needs to know that death loss is a real factor in the game. I see people nearly crying over a dead cow. I figure 5% death loss will occur. I have done this for a number of years and I can't remember a year when I didn't have at least one cow die. Also you run into cows who look to have a good udder that just don't produce any milk. This year out of 64 purchased cows I had 1 cow die, lost 4 calves, and one non milker (I pulled her calf and grafted it to one that had its calf die).

 

[blackladies]

You are right about that. A person also needs to know that death loss is a real factor in the game. I see people nearly crying over a dead cow. I figure 5% death loss will occur. I have done this for a number of years and I can't remember a year when I didn't have at least one cow die. Also you run into cows who look to have a good udder that just don't produce any milk. This year out of 64 purchased cows I had 1 cow die, lost 4 calves, and one non milker (I pulled her calf and grafted it to one that had its calf die).

Yeah I probably get to attached to some of them, but death is part of it. Glad you were able to get that one grafted.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

If your wanting the pasture to reseed itself could you let seed heads form? With the knowledge that it would hurt the total output of the pasture, but would put seeds in the seed bank.

I can see why someone would wonder about this and have contemplated that question myself, as well as had that question asked by others to me. I'll respond, but first ask yourself, and be honest why, (what is the root cause), does the pasture need reseeded?

The short answer to this is yes. You would treat the "letting seed heads form" as an exception to the rules, but know what you are doing and be sure it is going to have the effect you want it to and know what the consequences are.

Bear in mind first, the rules are for sod forming grasses as written. I don't know the species of grasses you are thinking about. You are in Missouri. That puts you in a transition zone of where the rules will work or not. It's more of a weather pattern and species thing. The rules can be modified and applied to many circumstances they were not initially designed for.

Letting seed heads form/produce seed can be a good thing. You will lower your total forage production for the year, and you will lower the quality of your forage by allowing it to mature beyond the optimum nutrition and palatability ranges.

If plants have decreased in number because of overgrazing, letting seed heads form to produce and reseed the pasture will not result in an increase in plants if you do not change your management. If the soil conditions are sub-par, letting grasses reseed naturally will likely produce lower than desired results. The seed will be somewhat adapted to the site because the seed is coming from 'adapted' plants.

Just because "the last time the pasture was seeded was X (lets say 12) years ago", does not necessarily mean that the grass is "played out" or "dying of old age". True, some grasses are annuals and I'm sure some grasses are relatively short lived. There are also grasses (individual grass plants) that are documented to actually be more than 70 years "old". Do note however that the vast majority of grass plants do not have component parts that exceed 2 years old. The fastest way to build organic matter in soil? Grow healthy grass roots because all the roots you see when you pull up a grass plant will become "soil organic matter" in two years. Half of those within one year.

You would possibly allow a pasture to reseed itself if: (1) It's native/natural pasture and the seed is difficult to find and/or very expensive (native grasses (I'm talking bunch grasses) are different and tend to require seed heads to form in order for the grass plant to actually survive. (2) There has been some sort of environmental event that has resulted in a significant amount of death loss of the existing grasses that is likely to not reoccur. (3) The pasture was recently reseeded and establishment was below the desired level but not so low that the seeding is considered a failure and allowing for natural reseeding will increase the number of grass plants. Allowing newly established grass plants established in this way to reseed will also allow those plants to improve their establishment and grow more vigorous over the long term.

If you are really needing the volume of forage to be "maximized" on the operation, don't let the grass go to seed. Ask yourself this: "Am I in the cow growing business, or am I in the seed production business?"

There probably already is a lot of seed in the seed bank.

 

[blackladies]

I can see why someone would wonder about this and have contemplated that question myself, as well as had that question asked by others to me. I'll respond, but first ask yourself, and be honest why, (what is the root cause), does the pasture need reseeded?

The short answer to this is yes. You would treat the "letting seed heads form" as an exception to the rules, but know what you are doing and be sure it is going to have the effect you want it to and know what the consequences are.

Bear in mind first, the rules are for sod forming grasses as written. I don't know the species of grasses you are thinking about. You are in Missouri. That puts you in a transition zone of where the rules will work or not. It's more of a weather pattern and species thing. The rules can be modified and applied to many circumstances they were not initially designed for.

Letting seed heads form/produce seed can be a good thing. You will lower your total forage production for the year, and you will lower the quality of your forage by allowing it to mature beyond the optimum nutrition and palatability ranges.

If plants have decreased in number because of overgrazing, letting seed heads form to produce and reseed the pasture will not result in an increase in plants if you do not change your management. If the soil conditions are sub-par, letting grasses reseed naturally will likely produce lower than desired results. The seed will be somewhat adapted to the site because the seed is coming from 'adapted' plants.

Just because "the last time the pasture was seeded was X (lets say 12) years ago", does not necessarily mean that the grass is "played out" or "dying of old age". True, some grasses are annuals and I'm sure some grasses are relatively short lived. There are also grasses (individual grass plants) that are documented to actually be more than 70 years "old". Do note however that the vast majority of grass plants do not have component parts that exceed 2 years old. The fastest way to build organic matter in soil? Grow healthy grass roots because all the roots you see when you pull up a grass plant will become "soil organic matter" in two years. Half of those within one year.

You would possibly allow a pasture to reseed itself if: (1) It's native/natural pasture and the seed is difficult to find and/or very expensive (native grasses (I'm talking bunch grasses) are different and tend to require seed heads to form in order for the grass plant to actually survive. (2) There has been some sort of environmental event that has resulted in a significant amount of death loss of the existing grasses that is likely to not reoccur. (3) The pasture was recently reseeded and establishment was below the desired level but not so low that the seeding is considered a failure and allowing for natural reseeding will increase the number of grass plants. Allowing newly established grass plants established in this way to reseed will also allow those plants to improve their establishment and grow more vigorous over the long term.

If you are really needing the volume of forage to be "maximized" on the operation, don't let the grass go to seed. Ask yourself this: "Am I in the cow growing business, or am I in the seed production business?"

There probably already is a lot of seed in the seed b

Thank you for putting the time in on a thoughtful response. Pasture is fescue/orchard/clover. Doesn't really need reseeded but having a hard time deciding what to do with hay cutting. Hard to find a window this time of year without rain for hay and balancing not letting seed heads come on. Have hay down right now hoping to bale before rain Friday. Have been thinking about just grazing my hayfield in the future till end of may then letting it rest till September and make hay. The pasture I use to graze is a little thin because of overgrazing and drought the past 3 years. If I grazed the hay field I could give the other pasture a break.

 

[Travlr]

Thank you for putting the time in on a thoughtful response. Pasture is fescue/orchard/clover. Doesn't really need reseeded but having a hard time deciding what to do with hay cutting. Hard to find a window this time of year without rain for hay and balancing not letting seed heads come on. Have hay down right now hoping to bale before rain Friday. Have been thinking about just grazing my hayfield in the future till end of may then letting it rest till September and make hay. The pasture I use to graze is a little thin because of overgrazing and drought the past 3 years. If I grazed the hay field I could give the other pasture a break.

I only had my hay cut for first cutting and otherwise rotated the field into my normal pasture rotation. Worked fine for me. You might want to read up on pasture rotation. Some people swear by rotating very often compared to how I did it.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Thank you for putting the time in on a thoughtful response. Pasture is fescue/orchard/clover. Doesn't really need reseeded but having a hard time deciding what to do with hay cutting. Hard to find a window this time of year without rain for hay and balancing not letting seed heads come on. Have hay down right now hoping to bale before rain Friday. Have been thinking about just grazing my hayfield in the future till end of may then letting it rest till September and make hay. The pasture I use to graze is a little thin because of overgrazing and drought the past 3 years. If I grazed the hay field I could give the other pasture a break.

I'm not as familiar with summer 'stockpiling' as I'd like to be, but in a nutshell, that is letting spring foliage accumulate such that it is available in the summer during the summer slump. I'd like to know what grasses would be good for this. The reason I ask this question is that you do NOT want to stockpile KY - 31 tall fescue for that (endophyte issues). Conversely DO give consideration to stockpiling KY-31 tall fescue for winter (dormant) season grazing (strip grazing) during the winter months. @kenny thomas is probably the "master" at stockpiling tall fescue on here (for the winter months anyway.)

 

[blackladies]

I only had my hay cut for first cutting and otherwise rotated the field into my normal pasture rotation. Worked fine for me. You might want to read up on pasture rotation. Some people swear by rotating very often compared to how I did it.

Have looked heavily into rotation and different types of grazing. Just trying to time/balance that with weather and producing my own hay. Worked on a place that we moved 4K head everyday. Produced hay and silage. I'm small time on my personal operation though. Still in the phase where I want to try different things. Have done bale grazing and rotational. Good things and bad about all of them. Would be easier and I could run more head if I just bought in my hay. Works on the good years $40-50 a bale but not on the bad years $70-100.

 

[tsellars]

@RzrbkFarmer58 Where is your family farm in North central Arkansas? If you don't mind sharing.

 

[Travlr]

Have looked heavily into rotation and different types of grazing. Just trying to time/balance that with weather and producing my own hay. Worked on a place that we moved 4K head everyday. Produced hay and silage. I'm small time on my personal operation though. Still in the phase where I want to try different things. Have done bale grazing and rotational. Good things and bad about all of them. Would be easier and I could run more head if I just bought in my hay. Works on the good years $40-50 a bale but not on the bad years $70-100.

My pastures improved with rotation enough that my stocking rate increased noticeably. And I still got plenty of hay. Hope you have the same...

 

[RzrbkFarmer58]

@RzrbkFarmer58 Where is your family farm in North central Arkansas? If you don't mind sharing.

Mountain Home. We farm down 201 South in the shady grove area.

 

[RzrbkFarmer58]

Where is your family farm in North central Arkansas? If you don't mind sharing.

Mountain Home. We farm down 201 South in the shady grove area.

 

[tsellars]

Mountain Home. We farm down 201 South in the shady grove area.

Know the area well. Grew up in ash flat and lived in mountain home for a couple of years. Spent a lot of time on Norfork.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Maybe build chicken (broiler) houses and home on the 35 acre side. Cow/calf or stockers on the 78 acre side. "Free fertilizer" that way and shared equipment for both operations. More consistent and regular cash flow maybe. Broilers and cows here are generally a good combination.

On the cow calf side Hereford cows with a Brangus bull or vice versa would make black baldies that would ring the bell.
I said Hereford as they are cheaper than Brangus here.
Secondly I prefer a red cow!
I can change the calf crop color by changing just the bull.

 

[Travlr]

On the cow calf side Hereford cows with a Brangus bull or vice versa would make black baldies that would ring the bell.
I said Hereford as they are cheaper than Brangus here.
Secondly I prefer a red cow!
I can change the calf crop color by changing just the bull.

I was walking past the auction yard today and made a detour to inspect the pens. One had a pinto mare with a brand new foal. The wife was smitten, and I have to admit I was too.
But there were also some very nice Hereford cows. Probably as good as I've seen in a few years and certainly better than anything else in the pens. Yes, with any kind of brahman influence they would have some calves that were bell ringers.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Go for it Mark. I can set you up with some great cows! LOL
Really, we are as much grass farmers as we are cow farmers. Without grass, we won't have cows for very long. So, you already have half the knowledge needed!!!

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Go for it Mark. I can set you up with some great cows! LOL
Really, we are as much grass farmers as we are cow farmers. Without grass, we won't have cows for very long. So, you already have half the knowledge needed!!!

@Jeanne - Simme Valley, your cows (cattle) actually crossed my mind, and are still in my mind. I'm still toying with the idea, but I have an offer for some free, unused pasture right now. The pasture is about an hour from home.