If you were starting over

[Lucky]

They consider 2ac/head to be accurate which I think is absolutely bizarre.

You thinking more or less? Grass always looks good when it's not being grazed. We run a cow per 4-5 acres in my area without fertilizing pastures.

How you operate depends allot on if you mind spending money. Some say run less, feed less, buy less equipment, and you'll make more money. I'm in the run more but generate more income group. The more income we can generate the more upgrades we can make to be more efficient at making money. For instance, we feed 1,000# of feed a day during the winter. We don't want to open sacks so have a bulk bin, troughs, and truck feeder to make things easier and more efficient. I might go in a feed store 3 or 4 times a year.

To me the break over point in how you operate is around 60 hd. 60 or more I'd setup to wean and ship. 60 or less I'd do something different.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

You thinking more or less? Grass always looks good when it's not being grazed. We run a cow per 4-5 acres in my area without fertilizing pastures.

How you operate depends allot on if you mind spending money. Some say run less, feed less, buy less equipment, and you'll make more money. I'm in the run more but generate more income group. The more income we can generate the more upgrades we can make to be more efficient at making money. For instance, we feed 1,000# of feed a day during the winter. We don't want to open sacks so have a bulk bin, troughs, and truck feeder to make things easier and more efficient. I might go in a feed store 3 or 4 times a year.

To me the break over point in how you operate is around 60 hd. 60 or more I'd setup to wean and ship. 60 or less I'd do something different.

2 acres per cow sounds 'tight' to me. 5 acres sounds like you have forage to spare. It takes a little time (a couple hours), but Web Soil Survey can be used and it will give you an exact AVERAGE forage production per year. From there, figure each cow consumes about 3.2% of its body weight per day. Using those 2 sets of numbers (cows and average production) I can tell you what you can run on your property if you give me the grazing rotation you are going to use, because grazing efficiency is going to run anywhere from 35% up to 85/90%. 35% is if you continuously graze them in a single pasture. 85-90% if you move the animals 3x a day and have 90 paddocks. I don't advocate either extreme and recommend a 5 pasture system that gets you 65-70% utilization with a weekly move, but the choice is yours, not mine or someone elses. Any system that does not overgraze the pastures can be the 'right' system for that producer.

 

[Lucky]

2 acres per cow sounds 'tight' to me. 5 acres sounds like you have forage to spare. It takes a little time (a couple hours), but Web Soil Survey can be used and it will give you an exact AVERAGE forage production per year. From there, figure each cow consumes about 3.2% of its body weight per day. Using those 2 sets of numbers (cows and average production) I can tell you what you can run on your property if you give me the grazing rotation you are going to use, because grazing efficiency is going to run anywhere from 35% up to 85/90%. 35% is if you continuously graze them in a single pasture. 85-90% if you move the animals 3x a day and have 90 paddocks. I don't advocate either extreme and recommend a 5 pasture system that gets you 65-70% utilization with a weekly move, but the choice is yours, not mine or someone elses. Any system that does not overgraze the pastures can be the 'right' system for that producer.

I think every area is different. In our area 1 to 5 is pretty standard. Some do run 1 to 3 but have to sell cows when it gets dry or supplement heavy in some way. We have 6 pastures and try to rotate every 2 weeks during the grazing season (mid March - late November). I'm not interested in rotating anymore than that unless we have to. I also don't want to sell cows everytime we go 30 days without a rain. Another thing we do is background our calves for 6-7 months after weaning so they take up some extra room. Just to clarify, when I say Cow I'm talking 1 cow/calf pair per 5 acres. Everyone talks so different in terms of hd or pounds per acre now. Thanks for the offer and I might send you something.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I think every area is different. In our area 1 to 5 is pretty standard. Some do run 1 to 3 but have to sell cows when it gets dry or supplement heavy in some way. We have 6 pastures and try to rotate every 2 weeks during the grazing season (mid March - late November). I'm not interested in rotating anymore than that unless we have to. I also don't want to sell cows everytime we go 30 days without a rain. Another thing we do is background our calves for 6-7 months after weaning so they take up some extra room. Just to clarify, when I say Cow I'm talking 1 cow/calf pair per 5 acres. Everyone talks so different in terms of hd or pounds per acre now. Thanks for the offer and I might send you something.

Every area IS different. I'll extend it further. Every farm is different. Further? Every pasture is different. And then every year is different. I'd be happy to take a look. I can give you scientifically based numbers. There areca whole host of variables that play havoc with what is actually produced each year on a given property though. That is where the "Art" of grazing kicks in.

 

[RDFF]

Here, in my custom operation, I've been able to carry them all growing season @1.25 acres/AU, not including the calves at side (which can be weighing over 500# by the end of the season). I don't charge for the calves until they hit 500#, so he'll usually wean them off as they get there. SE Minnesota, on good converted crop ground. I'm confident to be able to maintain that number even through the drought years, having experienced D4 drought in 2023 from early June all the way to the end of year, and again this past year from about end of July on. I actually "increased" by carrying numbers in the last two years, over the years prior, and still was able to go all season (May to November) without feeding. This year, I had plenty of grass left in the field after the custom cows left... at the end of October. My own herd got moved to that farm then, and they've been grazing on that stockpile, which allowed me to leave ALOT more through the winter on my own herds "normal" pasture... so it'll have more growth next year.

Capacity is VERY dependent on past practices, and management ability... and sometimes, location (arid desert vs. rain forest!), etc. You won't know till you try it, and adapt.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Four words... direct market (freezer beef)

Sky is the limit if you can market it.

 

[Travlr]

I sure will. Thank you for your input! The point about buying good cattle to start with is one that I needed to hear. I have always been a bargain shopper, which has done me well in real estate, but I know it would bite me big time if my goal was to pick them off 1 by 1 at the barn. There are so many cattle traders these days that I don't know where I should be looking, and they all seem to be "off one farm" or "complete sell out" deals. Any advice there? I would love to buy pairs, knowing what the animals are capable of, but not sure I want to fork over nearly $4k per

Here's a thought...

If your goal is a good herd full of fertility, longevity, and decent weaning weights, you might want to buy one and dones. Bred cows that are being culled simply because they've aged out and someone is getting rid of them to be replaced with younger cows.

If you can find anyone around you that have animals you admire, you could drop in and ask them what they do when they cull, and if they sell everything at 10 years old or so you might ask them if you can save them the sale barn commission and buy them direct. If they don't want to do that but they will still be selling through the auction you can ask if they could give you a call so you can bid on them.

I've had great experience with raising replacement heifers from old cows that have proven themselves. People keep their best cows as long as they can, and smooth mouth/broken mouth cows can raise a calf just like them... and go back to the auction to be sold for what you paid for them. Keep the best heifers and sell everything else.

 

[RzrbkFarmer58]

Here's a thought...

If your goal is a good herd full of fertility, longevity, and decent weaning weights, you might want to buy one and dones. Bred cows that are being culled simply because they've aged out and someone is getting rid of them to be replaced with younger cows.

If you can find anyone around you that have animals you admire, you could drop in and ask them what they do when they cull, and if they sell everything at 10 years old or so you might ask them if you can save them the sale barn commission and buy them direct. If they don't want to do that but they will still be selling through the auction you can ask if they could give you a call so you can bid on them.

I've had great experience with raising replacement heifers from old cows that have proven themselves. People keep their best cows as long as they can, and smooth mouth/broken mouth cows can raise a calf just like them... and go back to the auction to be sold for what you paid for them. Keep the best heifers and sell everything else.

This model is something I'm super interested in. I have done this a couple times but just 1-2 at a time. Love the idea of being able to buy an established herd's "age culls" directly off the farm. Like the previous posters have said, networking is going to be important

 

[RzrbkFarmer58]

You thinking more or less? Grass always looks good when it's not being grazed. We run a cow per 4-5 acres in my area without fertilizing pastures.

How you operate depends allot on if you mind spending money. Some say run less, feed less, buy less equipment, and you'll make more money. I'm in the run more but generate more income group. The more income we can generate the more upgrades we can make to be more efficient at making money. For instance, we feed 1,000# of feed a day during the winter. We don't want to open sacks so have a bulk bin, troughs, and truck feeder to make things easier and more efficient. I might go in a feed store 3 or 4 times a year.

To me the break over point in how you operate is around 60 hd. 60 or more I'd setup to wean and ship. 60 or less I'd do something different.

I've never been ashamed of our pastures at home and we typically have around 4ac/hd with no grazing pattern. So I'm thinking it will just take some testing to see how many I can hold on a grazing pattern, with as a whole better grass.

I know this is a different rabbit hole, but do you think frame size is something to consider in my circumstance? I've always had this dream of a bunch of 1300# charX cows… but I'm beginning to think it would be worth my time to look into a smaller frame cow that with the right bull will give an acceptable WW calf and eat X% less than the big girls, with optimizing cash flow being goal #1

 

[sstterry]

They consider 2ac/head to be accurate which I think is absolutely bizarre. I will likely end up owning ~50 cows

I sure would not recommend overestimating how many head/ac you can sustain in the beginning.

 

[simme]

but I'm beginning to think it would be worth my time to look into a smaller frame cow that with the right bull will give an acceptable WW calf and eat X% less than the big girls, with optimizing cash flow being goal #1

Many have chased that. May be like trying to find the end of the rainbow with the rumored pot of gold. Many times, you can "almost" see the end and imagine the pot of gold. And get into situations toward the end of the trek to the destination.

Calves grow from genetics and nutrition. Not from air, water or magic. Nutrition from the cow's milk for a few months gradually changing over to grass/hay/feed. To start with, how did the dam get to be smaller? Either did not have as much growth as the bigger cow or stopped growing sooner than the bigger cow. And genetics and nutrition are involved in that. The cow contributes part of the calf's genetics and almost all of the nutrition for a few months.

So, maybe a small cow bred to a bull where both are known for quick early growth and are early maturing. That quick growth points to a heavier milking dam maybe. So a smaller heavy milking cow bred to a small frame bull with early growth? I think a small cow with high milk may struggle to maintain body condition and fertility. And what does that say about the calf's performance after weaning and in the finishing stage. Is it possible to have a lower input, acceptable growth cow/calf operation that will produce a calf that performs well in the remaining steps in the chain?

I don't have the answers, just questions. But I think that there are a bunch of factors involved that all affect each other. I know that cows can be too big and that cows can be too small. Culling/selection required on both ends. My point - don't just think about small cow part and the good growth calf part as the goals. Watch for all the other things that are related. Environment and economics will eventually be a big part.

Nobody has ever found the end of the rainbow or the pot of gold, but it is worth looking for.

 

[Brute 23]

On building the herd, there is no guaranteed recipe that works for every one. The math helps but there is no number to represent risk because it's different for every one.

One person may have the time and be hanging out at the AB any ways so they can have the time to buy cattle there. There area may also have a good flow of solid cows.

The next guy may not be off all day to do that. They may need to buy from a seller where they have time to look and think and discuss.

The next person may have the set up and they eye to raise and build their herd.

Some one else may have friends they can network with and trade cattle.

It's easy to say... buying auction barn cattle makes the most money. Brain surgions make a bunch of money too, but we aren't all Brain surgeons. Some of us have to go be plumbers to get the same results.

That's some thing each person will have to navigate on their own. No one on here can tell you what will work best for you in your own operation. It's all just suggestions that you will have to work through with your math and resources.

 

[RDFF]

As has been said, there's nothing "magic" about any of this... don't get bought into "if I rotationally graze, or if I have [Charlais or] cows of X size, or if I feed X mineral, or if I...... THEN I will automatically find success". Nope. It's more, ...if I learn as much as I can from others who are happy with what they're doing, and if I can avoid the pitfalls others have already stepped into, and if I do alot of things "better" because of that learning, the positives will outweigh the negatives, and I'll then find a winning combination that works for me." THIS FORUM is a great source for your networking to start at, but expand that, particularly toward like individuals IN YOUR AREA. Often practices can be "context" related. What works in Canada, might not work in Arkansas, or even Minnesota! On the flip side of that, some practices will work ANYWHERE... like the basic principles of soil health, or like Simme's "calves grow from genetics and nutrition".

Basic underlying principles that never change. Focus on and get the basic underlying principles right, and the rest will pretty much take care of itself, you'll quickly learn how to manage the details. If your details work against or aren't aligned with the basic underlying principles, it's probably a rabbit hole you shouldn't be chasing.

 

[Dave]

There aren't absolutes but there are principles which apply to a degree in all situations. Rotational grazing will improve the health of the grass. But does that mean you rotate the pastures once a week or every day. That will depend on you, the time you have to do it, etc. Raise the kind of cattle you want. However if making money is a concern look at what will sell best in your area. Cattle with some ear sell well in south Texas but you get taken to the cleaners here with them. There is not a one to one ratio for feed consumption between larger and smaller cattle. Those 1,300 lb Char crosses you mentioned would be average here. Small for some Canadians and big for some areas in the south. Feed a mineral which makes up for anything lacking in your forage or feed. No one brand is best for every situation. Tests of the feed and the soil are beneficial and cheap compared to guessing.

 

[RDFF]

Remember too that at least in the PASTURED, and particularly the "grass-fed" cattle business (meaning no grain), we're not really "cattlemen"... we're grass farmers. The cattle are the harvesting and marketing tool of our grass business.

That's not so much the case if you're "buying in" your feed. Taken to the extreme, consider the fellow that buys all of his feed, and doesn't have "pasture", but instead, he's operating as a "feedlot". He doesn't really care much about how or what the commodity C/c feeder animal supplier is doing in his operation. He doesn't really care how or what the commodity "grass farmer" that supplies him hay is doing... as long as he can find the kind of hay he wants to feed. And he doesn't really care how any of the commodity grain farmers are doing, as long as he can find grain to feed, and the feed truck pulls in on time every time he needs some. What HE cares about is turning numbers, and keeping the animals in his lot gaining on his purchased commodities.... and even the cattle become just a commodity to him. He wants critters that come in consistently at a certain weight, gain at a certain rate, and go out the door on a certain date. Doesn't really care too much about color, or disposition, or "soil health", or anything else.

That realization (that we're primarily GRASS farmers) changes how you look at what those animals will be able to do for you. That's why my farm's name is "Rock Dell FORAGE Farms"! I need to focus mostly on the grass.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

It's a double edged sword though.

The best forage is a "waste" if you don't have the right cows to capitalize on it.

 

[Brute 23]

It's a double edged sword though.

The best forage is a "waste" if you don't have the right cows to capitalize on it.

... and top dollar means nothing if your expenses are through the roof.

 

[Lucky_P]

We did management-intensive grazing, but also fed hay and DDG during the winter, when nothing was growing, and I could never figure out how to 'stockpile' forage with the cow numbers my farm manager(wife) was adamant about us running. Sure, if we'd have cut cow numbers from 80 to 20, I could have put significant acreage 'off-limits' to grazing for the 3-4 months it'd take to 'stockpile' some winter forage, but as it was, we just kept rotating around the farm until actual winter arrived and re-growth stopped; cows then went to sacrifice paddocks for the 4-5 months of winter feeding.
'Grass-fed/grass-finished', 'all natural', etc., niche markets may be worth pursuing, but 'No vaccines'? That's a disaster in the making. At minimum, you'd better be administering Clostridial bacterin/toxoids... you might skate along for a few years without doing so, but eventually, blackleg will show up, and losing 1/3 to 1/2 of a year's calf crop(or more) at the expense of not administering $1.50 worth of vaccine is a tough thing to swallow.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

... and top dollar means nothing if your expenses are through the roof.

Maximize profit, NOT production. (Optimize, don't Maximize)

 

[BFE]

@RzrbkFarmer58, welcome to the forum! and welcome to the cattle business as well.

You've started with the feds in getting a farm loan, but you went to the 'dark' side of the USDA, the FSA (just kidding). Convert to the "Rebellion" and now go to the good of the USDA and work with the NRCS on a grazing plan. (OK, enough Star Wars references). I'm a Grazing Specialist with the NRCS and write grazing plans all day long. (Well, not as many as I used to but now I train others).

In terms of rotational grazing, you will want a minimum of 5 separate paddocks to rotate your herd through, so keep that in mind for permanent fencing. Review the "Four Never Fail Rules of Grazing". You can read book after book after book about rotational grazing, but this "Half Page" list of rules will tell you 95% of what you need to know about grazing/pasture management you need to get started. It was designed to be exceedingly simple and easy to comprehend.

The stand of grass that you have there looks to be in good shape. Get a soil test and I would say a minimum of two soil tests, one for each side of the road. Take note of the pH and adjust this if it needs adjusted before you ever fertilize. The pH has an effect on what the soil test shows is in the soil. It also affects the availability of nutrients to the plant.

You asked about cow/calf vs stockers. That's very much an individual choice. You talked quite a bit more about the CC. If you want to focus on a specific breed/mix, find a producer that has those. If you are after quality animals, stay away from the sale barn. I'm not saying its bad, but it is 'pot luck' and you have to remember that all the problem animals get brought there to be 'disposed of'. Overall, raising stockers will most likely give you the biggest profit and the fastest return. Also understand that stockers are a 'bunch of rowdy teenagers' that can be harder to manage than a 'laid back' cow.

Starting out, I would create a herd that would be composed of a "3 way cross" for hybrid vigor if I was going cow/calf.

I'll add that if you are needing stock tanks, fencing, seeding, brush management, paid for rotational grazing, other practices, the NRCS awards contracts with cost share for these practices based off your grazing management plan.

You have a link for that?