What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

[Caustic Burno]

BINGO! Well stated Jeanne.
James, lets state a few positives about hybrid vigor given that what Jeanne stated is in play: increased yield, increased growth rate, increased fertility, increased efficiency to name a few of the top characteristics, along with increased size.
You have large, deep, quality Angus cows by all accounts that are producing quality Angus calves with the AI program you are using. That is very effective for the PUREBRED SEEDSTOCK operation you have. No need for you to crossbreed as that is not your goal. However, i promise you as i type this, if i were to take your fine Angus cattle and breed to a quality Hereford bull from mvictordomino, or a QUALITY bull from any of the other non Angus breeders here (dubcharo, red bull breeder, Jeanne, etc not an all inclusive list, just first few non Angus that popped into my head) due to heterosis, those crossbreeds would be genetically superior to their parents in many if not all the above listed characteristics. Of course as a seedstock breeder, that would not serve you, but there are many a commercial cattleman that butters his bread doing just that. As more than one wise cattleman has stated previously, its the only freebie in the cattle business.
Speaking to the the cattle your neighbors are running, that's simple; i suspect they are not starting with cattle that are as high a quality as what your farm is working with. Everyone starts somewhere. It all takes time and effort to improve. Some move forward, some do not.

Hybrid vigor is the cattleman's free gift from God. Take a F-1 Tiger and terminal 3 breed bull and add 20% of grade beef to the scales. To maximize potential is not equal between all breeds the more diverse genetically between breeds maximizes potential . Hybrid vigor is expressed most in a 3 breed terminal cross after that too many crayons are out of the box. Calf crop consistency and vigor traits start regression.

I'm not arguing but merely stating the obvious. Higher growth from a crossed calf is still requiring more milk, grass or feed to get higher weights. It is good and bad but if the good side works for you, you have the feed, you have a high market for heavy weights, ... then it is real. Crossbreeding does allow to have moderate cows to produce larger calves and that is economical along with all of the benefits you and others mentioned about the crossed brood cow. This is like water off of a duck's back to BH because he can only think big and expensive.

Your arguing against the scientific community here when you think a purebred will out perform the crossbred calf on growth and weight on
less inputs.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I wasn't asking about culls. I know what they are worth.

We just had the discussions going of sorry sale barns in KY and barn prices to compare to high fed registered stock. I do not sell on CT.

So even though I've seen a few of your bulls and I believe your environment and mine are similar therefore your animals should do a good job for me you wouldn't sell me one?

 

[Ebenezer]

Hybrid vigor is the cattleman's free gift from God. Take a F-1 Tiger and terminal 3 breed bull and add 20% of grade beef to the scales. To maximize potential is not equal between all breeds the more diverse genetically between breeds maximizes potential . Hybrid vigor is expressed most in a 3 breed terminal cross after that too many crayons are out of the box. Calf crop consistency and vigor traits start regression.

I'm not arguing but merely stating the obvious. Higher growth from a crossed calf is still requiring more milk, grass or feed to get higher weights. It is good and bad but if the good side works for you, you have the feed, you have a high market for heavy weights, ... then it is real. Crossbreeding does allow to have moderate cows to produce larger calves and that is economical along with all of the benefits you and others mentioned about the crossed brood cow. This is like water off of a duck's back to BH because he can only think big and expensive.

Your arguing against the scientific community here when you think a purebred will out perform the crossbred calf on growth and weight on
less inputs.

Please re-read. That is not what I said. I did not mention purebreds in the response. Pounds gained require pounds consumed. Been there, done that.

 

[Ebenezer]

I wasn't asking about culls. I know what they are worth.

We just had the discussions going of sorry sale barns in KY and barn prices to compare to high fed registered stock. I do not sell on CT.

So even though I've seen a few of your bulls and I believe your environment and mine are similar therefore your animals should do a good job for me you wouldn't sell me one?

Most likely, no. I've had offers to ship a load to KY and declined before. But thanks anyway. I'm a local guy.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I will suspend disbelief and take you at your word.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Many of our commercial cattle around these parts are simangus. We've bred so much angus into them that anything we've retained the past several years are "mostly" angus now.

I have a small group of replacements just south of my house and I see 3 blaze faces out my window. We've actually talked about introducing Sim back into them but we are using a good portion of our cows for PB embryos this year. So maybe next.

We also have our Okies (who are so freakin' stupid, it's unbelievable...) whom are southern cattle. A mut mix batch of old cows we bought last fall. We'll fatten those out but I wish we'd just sell everything from this nightmare. They don't like our winters and won't cross water. Maybe they have PTSD from the flooding. Lol. Stupid cows!

 

[Bcompton53]

I'm not arguing but merely stating the obvious. Higher growth from a crossed calf is still requiring more milk, grass or feed to get higher weights. It is good and bad but if the good side works for you, you have the feed, you have a high market for heavy weights, ... then it is real. Crossbreeding does allow to have moderate cows to produce larger calves and that is economical along with all of the benefits you and others mentioned about the crossed brood cow. This is like water off of a duck's back to BH because he can only think big and expensive.

Your arguing against the scientific community here when you think a purebred will out perform the crossbred calf on growth and weight on
less inputs.

Please re-read. That is not what I said. I did not mention purebreds in the response. Pounds gained require pounds consumed. Been there, done that.

I'd like to understand this a little better if someone has an easy general description. Everyone says crossbreeding is the free lunch. But then again, you're right, a heavier calf generally got that way by eating more. However, what is the actual effect from that crossbreeding? Is it simply growth rate? Or is it feed efficiency? You see my question? If it's growth rate, then sure why not just use a high WW/YW/YH bull. If it's feed efficiency then those extra pounds may or may not require more intake.
Thoughts?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yes, you get better weaning weights, but I think the biggest benefit from crossbreeding - is the F1 COW. She is more fertile, healthier, longer lived. Just those 3 traits alone make her a great cow.

 

[CreekAngus]

Sounds like Dr. Hough has an agenda, but if you guys are happy that's all that matters.

James, don't even read the WORDS - just look at the charts. These charts are from MARC. Do you even know what/where MARC is? MEAT ANIMAL RESEARCH CENTER, in Nebraska. This is RESEARCH.
I'm fine with how Simmentals are stacking up.

If I had a nickel for every time a feller complains to me about so and so's bulls didn't do anything for his herd and I see a bunch of boner, ruddy, pin hipped cattle......well I'd have a lot of nickels. My Dad one time ran a hereford bull in with his angus (commercial) and ended up with some great baldies. Neighbor complained that he must of got one of the rare "good" bulls from that outfit. It was a good bull on good cattle. I'm starting really slowly on creating a commercial herd (angus) out of my registered stock and when I get a good base of cattle, I will be looking to terminal cross them with Simms.

 

[CreekAngus]

You don't need to worry about that high maintenance issue if you are feeding grain year round! :cowboy:

I wonder if ol' Branded has a stump and a mirror out in the pasture we're he can preach to convince himself of his extrapolations? :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock: :shock: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

High maintenance seedstock, may not be much of an issue, if your market is ok with it. Sounds to me like his customer base is running smaller framed cattle and need Jame's bulls size and growth abilities. I'm kind of in the same boat, run a bit smaller framed cows and do a limited creep for my young bulls. Sounds like in Kentucky grass is a plenty and there isn't much concern about a bull withering away, which is something I have to concern myself with. If my bulls were having to cover range, I would consider not even allowing any creep, we got to raise our cattle for the environment they are working in.

In that use, the BH bulls would be terminal type.

It sounds to me like, yes, Jame's customer base is probably leaning towards terminal. I hate to think of my bulls as terminal, but where I'm at most farms will only retain 5 to 10 heifers (most herds only 20 to 40 cattle) all the rest get weaned at the back of the stock trailer on the way to the sale. And it sounds like in his part of Kentucky it's the same way. I would like to think my customers are keeping every heifer for replacement, but that isn't the deal in this area. I don't breed to terminal though, this is a hobby for me and I breed towards my own agenda, not for any specific market.

 

[JWBrahman]

This sounds like those discussions where well intentioned adults try to reason with a spoiled, over indulged child that has received a trophy for everything in life.

All of the claims made that purebreed animals are more vigorous have been disproven and refuted in every possible way.

The only thing the original poster has proven is that this individual will never be a profitable rancher. Anybody can spend money. It's even easier when somebody gave it to you...

 

[Nesikep]

On heterosis/crossbreeding
Yes, it takes more feed to make the pounds, of course, but if it's the calf that you're holding for 7 months with the big appetite making those pounds it's more profitable than having a monstrous cow you have to feed 365 days a year to do the same.

 

[Bcompton53]

This sounds like those discussions where well intentioned adults try to reason with a spoiled, over indulged child that has received a trophy for everything in life.

All of the claims made that purebreed animals are more vigorous have been disproven and refuted in every possible way.

The only thing the original poster has proven is that this individual will never be a profitable rancher. Anybody can spend money. It's even easier when somebody gave it to you...

He sure says that he's profitable. But I just don't see it lasting long. At some point the people buying the bulls will say, look I need something to bring these mature weights down. Or, I'm sick of pulling calves, it's just not my thing. There's always a niche, but at some point....

 

[Ebenezer]

I will suspend disbelief and take you at your word.

Why come so far when Smith Grove is so close? Good cattle are not rare. Just learn the programs and buy what works for you.

 

[Ebenezer]

Highly heritable traits like feed efficiency and carcass quality exhibit little or no heterosis.

http://factsheets.okstate.edu/documents/ansi-3150-crossbreeding-beef-cattle-i/

 

[CattleMan1920]

You don't need to worry about that high maintenance issue if you are feeding grain year round! :cowboy:

I wonder if ol' Branded has a stump and a mirror out in the pasture we're he can preach to convince himself of his extrapolations? :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock: :shock: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

High maintenance seedstock, may not be much of an issue, if your market is ok with it. Sounds to me like his customer base is running smaller framed cattle and need Jame's bulls size and growth abilities. I'm kind of in the same boat, run a bit smaller framed cows and do a limited creep for my young bulls. Sounds like in Kentucky grass is a plenty and there isn't much concern about a bull withering away, which is something I have to concern myself with. If my bulls were having to cover range, I would consider not even allowing any creep, we got to raise our cattle for the environment they are working in.

In that use, the BH bulls would be terminal type.

They sure look maternal by the numbers.

 

[Bcompton53]

High maintenance seedstock, may not be much of an issue, if your market is ok with it. Sounds to me like his customer base is running smaller framed cattle and need Jame's bulls size and growth abilities. I'm kind of in the same boat, run a bit smaller framed cows and do a limited creep for my young bulls. Sounds like in Kentucky grass is a plenty and there isn't much concern about a bull withering away, which is something I have to concern myself with. If my bulls were having to cover range, I would consider not even allowing any creep, we got to raise our cattle for the environment they are working in.

In that use, the BH bulls would be terminal type.

They sure look maternal by the numbers.

Do you know the difference? (Joking.....kind of)

 

[CattleMan1920]

In that use, the BH bulls would be terminal type.

They sure look maternal by the numbers.

Do you know the difference? (Joking.....kind of)

No, I'm just guessing. I'm still wondering what CED, CEM, HP, MILK mean.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I will suspend disbelief and take you at your word.

Why come so far when Smith Grove is so close? Good cattle are not rare. Just learn the programs and buy what works for you.

He's waiting for an America bull with high carcass scores, wonder where TT is going to find that combo? Probably not where you mentioned, or anywhere else in the multi-state vicinity. Just a hunch.

 

[Bcompton53]

They sure look maternal by the numbers.

Do you know the difference? (Joking.....kind of)

No, I'm just guessing. I'm still wondering what CED, CEM, HP, MILK mean.

I think it's Chases Every Dog, Calves Expected to Moo, and Maternal Inkling to Like to Kick.