What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

[Nesikep]

Here's another part of that article I liked

Maintenance requirements are a function of body size (actually surface), and visceral and organ mass. High milk cattle have conclusively been shown to have more visceral and organ mass which gives them higher maintenance requirements, whether they are lactating or not. Thus, with the average Angus cow's size and milk potential, the breed has become one
with some of the highest maintenance cost cows in the industry. The train is definitely off the tracks here, but there
are herds that have not followed the fads of growth and milk. Does the Angus breed really need 100+ pound Yearling Weight EPD/high Milk EPD cattle, which seems to have become the norm for most high-use herd sires?
Why is no one paying attention to $E, the maintenance energy index? Again, luckily there is a large group of likeminded breeders who have stayed at home in terms of breeding Angus for what they are meant to be—medium size cows with milk adaptable to a wide range of environments and reasonable growth

 

[gcreekrch]

Here's another part of that article I liked

Maintenance requirements are a function of body size (actually surface), and visceral and organ mass. High milk cattle have conclusively been shown to have more visceral and organ mass which gives them higher maintenance requirements, whether they are lactating or not. Thus, with the average Angus cow's size and milk potential, the breed has become one
with some of the highest maintenance cost cows in the industry. The train is definitely off the tracks here, but there
are herds that have not followed the fads of growth and milk. Does the Angus breed really need 100+ pound Yearling Weight EPD/high Milk EPD cattle, which seems to have become the norm for most high-use herd sires?
Why is no one paying attention to $E, the maintenance energy index? Again, luckily there is a large group of likeminded breeders who have stayed at home in terms of breeding Angus for what they are meant to be—medium size cows with milk adaptable to a wide range of environments and reasonable growth

You don't need to worry about that high maintenance issue if you are feeding grain year round! :cowboy:

I wonder if ol' Branded has a stump and a mirror out in the pasture we're he can preach to convince himself of his extrapolations? :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock: :shock: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

 

[CreekAngus]

Many times these threads completely run off the rails and go into absurdity. James, unfortunately you're arguing against science and real data, hybrid vigor is real, works and will continue to do so. Too often you try to blow out other people's candle to make yours burn brighter. You got nice cow, calves and bulls, let them stand on their own. And gosh darn it, quit dragging SAV whatever into every stinking thread, rarely are your comparisons even relevant. James, you also need to understand the difference in your market and the rest of the country. I live in an area where stocker prices are lower than the east side of the state, which is lower than the plains states. If you don't have feed lots and packing plants near you, prices will be stunted. This truth is why SAV bulls will work for your customers more than GAR, but as you head west, carcass matters and SAV influence wanes. Every single thread doesn't need to turn into lunacy.

 

[CreekAngus]

Here's another part of that article I liked

Maintenance requirements are a function of body size (actually surface), and visceral and organ mass. High milk cattle have conclusively been shown to have more visceral and organ mass which gives them higher maintenance requirements, whether they are lactating or not. Thus, with the average Angus cow's size and milk potential, the breed has become one
with some of the highest maintenance cost cows in the industry. The train is definitely off the tracks here, but there
are herds that have not followed the fads of growth and milk. Does the Angus breed really need 100+ pound Yearling Weight EPD/high Milk EPD cattle, which seems to have become the norm for most high-use herd sires?
Why is no one paying attention to $E, the maintenance energy index? Again, luckily there is a large group of likeminded breeders who have stayed at home in terms of breeding Angus for what they are meant to be—medium size cows with milk adaptable to a wide range of environments and reasonable growth

You don't need to worry about that high maintenance issue if you are feeding grain year round! :cowboy:

I wonder if ol' Branded has a stump and a mirror out in the pasture we're he can preach to convince himself of his extrapolations? :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock: :shock: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

High maintenance seedstock, may not be much of an issue, if your market is ok with it. Sounds to me like his customer base is running smaller framed cattle and need Jame's bulls size and growth abilities. I'm kind of in the same boat, run a bit smaller framed cows and do a limited creep for my young bulls. Sounds like in Kentucky grass is a plenty and there isn't much concern about a bull withering away, which is something I have to concern myself with. If my bulls were having to cover range, I would consider not even allowing any creep, we got to raise our cattle for the environment they are working in.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Sounds like Dr. Hough has an agenda, but if you guys are happy that's all that matters.

I think Bob Hough is a pretty darn smart cattle guy. Read the article closely.
If I remember correctly he is a good friend of Red Bull Breeder also.

I never said he wasn't smart, I said he had an agenda.

 

[CattleMan1920]

The great thing about posting on Cattle Today is that your post lives forever, so I will either be right about Angus or really wrong, and it will be documented so it can be referred to in the future.

As for milk. I may be crazy, but I've always been under the impression that cows that excel in that department raise a nice calf. In fact, James Lingle Of Wye Angus said milk was one of the most important things he looked for in a cow. What the heck did he know? Or me for that matter...

As for the hybrid vigor discussion. I will say it again, people are cross breeding all around me, but they aren't getting the deep bodied, high performance females that I produce.

Recently a client called me and we chatted about his calf crop, he told me that he didn't pull a single one, the calves have really good growth, and vigor. Big deal you may say, that's to be expected, right? Here is what I found interesting, after seeing his success, he had some people he knows tell him, you should have used a Balancer or Gelbvieh, the Angus is going to cause you problems. He told me that he had to disagree, the calves were better than most anything he had in the past, when using Gelbvieh. The recommendation to avoid Angus was based on personal preference, not fact, that's a problem, and he recognized that the advice he was getting was misguided at best. Not to mention his bull has the CAB "Targeting the Brand" logo, which means his Marb and $G are above breed average. Can his other advisers give him a good idea of the carcass traits that their suggestions bring to the table? Are they even DNA tested? Who knows? You guys think I'm only breeding for size but I'm highly focused on carcass and judging from how many of my cattle have the logo, I'm on the right track.

If Angus is in trouble as the Doc proclaims, then I'm prepared to go down with the ship. I think he sounds more Chicken Little than anything. Angus isn't going anywhere, except maybe up.

 

[Nesikep]

With you being seedstock, I do think you should stay with Angus, however, if your customers are commercial with high% angus mommas, then an outcross is probably good for them.

There's also a problem with what you're saying when you say the GV calves didn't look as good.. well.. What was the lineage there? I posted this "Thing" in the craigslist prize bulls thread

Yes, papered and PB Gelbvieh... Well if that's the kind of bull those people used, it's little surprise they aren't that happy with the calves.

Here's some 9-10 month olds from the ranch I deal with for comparison

 

[WinterSpringsFarm]

Sounds like Dr. Hough has an agenda, but if you guys are happy that's all that matters.

So do you, but here we are reading the ************* show again. Oh, and just curious, who are you? What's your prefix? Cause all this Banty Rooster strutting you're doing is quite funny for someone I've never heard of. Hell, I've never even seen any of your highly in demand better than ever genetics. Other than the ones you promote here obviously.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

In order to get great calves in crossbreeding you have to have quality cows and bull. Breed junk to junk, you will get junk. Maybe a little better junk if you crossbreed - but junk.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Sounds like Dr. Hough has an agenda, but if you guys are happy that's all that matters.

James, don't even read the WORDS - just look at the charts. These charts are from MARC. Do you even know what/where MARC is? MEAT ANIMAL RESEARCH CENTER, in Nebraska. This is RESEARCH.
I'm fine with how Simmentals are stacking up.

 

[southernultrablack]

Heterosis is real.
4 month old crossbred calf. No creep, no grain. Just grass and momma's milk, out of a moderate 12-1300 pound crossbred cow.....

 

[bball]

In order to get great calves in crossbreeding you have to have quality cows and bull. Breed junk to junk, you will get junk. Maybe a little better junk if you crossbreed - but junk.

BINGO! Well stated Jeanne.
James, lets state a few positives about hybrid vigor given that what Jeanne stated is in play: increased yield, increased growth rate, increased fertility, increased efficiency to name a few of the top characteristics, along with increased size.
You have large, deep, quality Angus cows by all accounts that are producing quality Angus calves with the AI program you are using. That is very effective for the PUREBRED SEEDSTOCK operation you have. No need for you to crossbreed as that is not your goal. However, i promise you as i type this, if i were to take your fine Angus cattle and breed to a quality Hereford bull from mvictordomino, or a QUALITY bull from any of the other non Angus breeders here (dubcharo, red bull breeder, Jeanne, etc not an all inclusive list, just first few non Angus that popped into my head) due to heterosis, those crossbreeds would be genetically superior to their parents in many if not all the above listed characteristics. Of course as a seedstock breeder, that would not serve you, but there are many a commercial cattleman that butters his bread doing just that. As more than one wise cattleman has stated previously, its the only freebie in the cattle business.
Speaking to the the cattle your neighbors are running, that's simple; i suspect they are not starting with cattle that are as high a quality as what your farm is working with. Everyone starts somewhere. It all takes time and effort to improve. Some move forward, some do not.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Sounds like Dr. Hough has an agenda, but if you guys are happy that's all that matters.

I think Bob Hough is a pretty darn smart cattle guy. Read the article closely.
If I remember correctly he is a good friend of Red Bull Breeder also.

Here's another article he penned.

https://www.internationalgeneticsolutions.com/index.php/component/k2/item/35-management-perspectives-no-hype-epds-work

Pretty interesting in light of the EPD discussions we've had recently.

 

[Caustic Burno]

In order to get great calves in crossbreeding you have to have quality cows and bull. Breed junk to junk, you will get junk. Maybe a little better junk if you crossbreed - but junk.

BINGO! Well stated Jeanne.
James, lets state a few positives about hybrid vigor given that what Jeanne stated is in play: increased yield, increased growth rate, increased fertility, increased efficiency to name a few of the top characteristics, along with increased size.
You have large, deep, quality Angus cows by all accounts that are producing quality Angus calves with the AI program you are using. That is very effective for the PUREBRED SEEDSTOCK operation you have. No need for you to crossbreed as that is not your goal. However, i promise you as i type this, if i were to take your fine Angus cattle and breed to a quality Hereford bull from mvictordomino, or a QUALITY bull from any of the other non Angus breeders here (dubcharo, red bull breeder, Jeanne, etc not an all inclusive list, just first few non Angus that popped into my head) due to heterosis, those crossbreeds would be genetically superior to their parents in many if not all the above listed characteristics. Of course as a seedstock breeder, that would not serve you, but there are many a commercial cattleman that butters his bread doing just that. As more than one wise cattleman has stated previously, its the only freebie in the cattle business.
Speaking to the the cattle your neighbors are running, that's simple; i suspect they are not starting with cattle that are as high a quality as what your farm is working with. Everyone starts somewhere. It all takes time and effort to improve. Some move forward, some do not.

Hybrid vigor is the cattleman's free gift from God. Take a F-1 Tiger and terminal 3 breed bull and add 20% of grade beef to the scales. To maximize potential is not equal between all breeds the more diverse genetically between breeds maximizes potential . Hybrid vigor is expressed most in a 3 breed terminal cross after that too many crayons are out of the box. Calf crop consistency and vigor traits start regression.

 

[Ebenezer]

Humble?

Try the stockyards here in my hometown if you want to be humbled.

I doubt a top sire from ABS or ORIgen would bring more than $1800

How is that for humbling?

Might be a reason - it might be their worth. The king did not know that he had no clothes until he was told. It is common in situations with egos and buddy/buddy is involved.

How much do your bulls average Ebenezer?

Cull bull recently at the sale barn: $0.94/lb. Let's be clear, there is no reason to feel smug because registered bulls on the farm sell for more than sale barn bulls. Those bulls are at the barn because the owner could or would not sell them at home or did not want them. Just an ego boost to compare. But also a reality check.

 

[Ebenezer]

Here's another part of that article I liked

You don't need to worry about that high maintenance issue if you are feeding grain year round! :cowboy:

I wonder if ol' Branded has a stump and a mirror out in the pasture we're he can preach to convince himself of his extrapolations? :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock: :shock: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

High maintenance seedstock, may not be much of an issue, if your market is ok with it. Sounds to me like his customer base is running smaller framed cattle and need Jame's bulls size and growth abilities. I'm kind of in the same boat, run a bit smaller framed cows and do a limited creep for my young bulls. Sounds like in Kentucky grass is a plenty and there isn't much concern about a bull withering away, which is something I have to concern myself with. If my bulls were having to cover range, I would consider not even allowing any creep, we got to raise our cattle for the environment they are working in.

In that use, the BH bulls would be terminal type.

 

[Ebenezer]

The great thing about posting on Cattle Today is that your post lives forever, so I will either be right about Angus or really wrong, and it will be documented so it can be referred to in the future.

As for milk. I may be crazy, but I've always been under the impression that cows that excel in that department raise a nice calf. In fact, James Lingle Of Wye Angus said milk was one of the most important things he looked for in a cow. What the heck did he know? Or me for that matter...

As for the hybrid vigor discussion. I will say it again, people are cross breeding all around me, but they aren't getting the deep bodied, high performance females that I produce.

Recently a client called me and we chatted about his calf crop, he told me that he didn't pull a single one, the calves have really good growth, and vigor. Big deal you may say, that's to be expected, right? Here is what I found interesting, after seeing his success, he had some people he knows tell him, you should have used a Balancer or Gelbvieh, the Angus is going to cause you problems. He told me that he had to disagree, the calves were better than most anything he had in the past, when using Gelbvieh. The recommendation to avoid Angus was based on personal preference, not fact, that's a problem, and he recognized that the advice he was getting was misguided at best. Not to mention his bull has the CAB "Targeting the Brand" logo, which means his Marb and $G are above breed average. Can his other advisers give him a good idea of the carcass traits that their suggestions bring to the table? Are they even DNA tested? Who knows? You guys think I'm only breeding for size but I'm highly focused on carcass and judging from how many of my cattle have the logo, I'm on the right track.

If Angus is in trouble as the Doc proclaims, then I'm prepared to go down with the ship. I think he sounds more Chicken Little than anything. Angus isn't going anywhere, except maybe up.

We lost interest in GV quickly. I think the outcrossing to Angus was necessary to hold market share and probably saved them in the SE USA. I do not use a lot of opinions to make decisions so that was a smart move to avoid what somebody you met randomly suggested. Wye was a creep feeding operation under Lingle. Creep feeding does a lot for the calf and the cow. Wye is still in business but if you look around you do not see much impact. Might want to ponder on that or if you want a high milk Wye bull find some Fargo semen and see what you think.

 

[Ebenezer]

In order to get great calves in crossbreeding you have to have quality cows and bull. Breed junk to junk, you will get junk. Maybe a little better junk if you crossbreed - but junk.

BINGO! Well stated Jeanne.
James, lets state a few positives about hybrid vigor given that what Jeanne stated is in play: increased yield, increased growth rate, increased fertility, increased efficiency to name a few of the top characteristics, along with increased size.
You have large, deep, quality Angus cows by all accounts that are producing quality Angus calves with the AI program you are using. That is very effective for the PUREBRED SEEDSTOCK operation you have. No need for you to crossbreed as that is not your goal. However, i promise you as i type this, if i were to take your fine Angus cattle and breed to a quality Hereford bull from mvictordomino, or a QUALITY bull from any of the other non Angus breeders here (dubcharo, red bull breeder, Jeanne, etc not an all inclusive list, just first few non Angus that popped into my head) due to heterosis, those crossbreeds would be genetically superior to their parents in many if not all the above listed characteristics. Of course as a seedstock breeder, that would not serve you, but there are many a commercial cattleman that butters his bread doing just that. As more than one wise cattleman has stated previously, its the only freebie in the cattle business.
Speaking to the the cattle your neighbors are running, that's simple; i suspect they are not starting with cattle that are as high a quality as what your farm is working with. Everyone starts somewhere. It all takes time and effort to improve. Some move forward, some do not.

Hybrid vigor is the cattleman's free gift from God. Take a F-1 Tiger and terminal 3 breed bull and add 20% of grade beef to the scales. To maximize potential is not equal between all breeds the more diverse genetically between breeds maximizes potential . Hybrid vigor is expressed most in a 3 breed terminal cross after that too many crayons are out of the box. Calf crop consistency and vigor traits start regression.

I'm not arguing but merely stating the obvious. Higher growth from a crossed calf is still requiring more milk, grass or feed to get higher weights. It is good and bad but if the good side works for you, you have the feed, you have a high market for heavy weights, ... then it is real. Crossbreeding does allow to have moderate cows to produce larger calves and that is economical along with all of the benefits you and others mentioned about the crossed brood cow. This is like water off of a duck's back to BH because he can only think big and expensive.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I wasn't asking about culls. I know what they are worth.

 

[Ebenezer]

I wasn't asking about culls. I know what they are worth.

We just had the discussions going of sorry sale barns in KY and barn prices to compare to high fed registered stock. I do not sell on CT.