Cattle: Generations

[CreekAngus]

How many generations must one produce before they can be considered a real breeder? And I'm talking phenotype and quality of animal, not epd's. I say at least 4 generations of your own doing. Proof that your decision making has been good or when poor, you corrected it (culling). You can change epd's in two generations, especially in a small herd, but that doesn't mean you've created good cattle. I think by the fourth generation a lot of your bad breedings will come to light; poor udders, bad feet, narrow hips, lack of rib, poor breed back.

 

[Redgully]

Very interesting question, I'm interested in the replies. Tough question too.

 

[wbvs58]

Yes it is rewarding having weaned a nice heifer and look back through the pedigree and see your prefix going back a few generations. How many generations I don't know, some might only be a couple and you can sit back think you have achieved something, others might be 4 or so.

Ken

 

[Caustic Burno]

How many generations must one produce before they can be considered a real breeder? And I'm talking phenotype and quality of animal, not epd's. I say at least 4 generations of your own doing. Proof that your decision making has been good or when poor, you corrected it (culling). You can change epd's in two generations, especially in a small herd, but that doesn't mean you've created good cattle. I think by the fourth generation a lot of your bad breedings will come to light; poor udders, bad feet, narrow hips, lack of rib, poor breed back.

IMOO 7 generations.
That's what the average seedstock producers lasted last workshop I attended.

 

[Son of Butch]

Prior to ets 7 generations was also the expected lifetime production of a seedstock producer.
producers age 21-65 = 44 yrs and 7 generations x 7 yrs = 49 yrs

While I agree with Creek Angus estimate of 4 generations, hot crossed buns, I think 3 generations
and a man can feel he has left his mark on his herd as a breeder.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Define breeder? I have cattle that have 3 generations of my prefix in them. I have yet to breed the perfect cow or bull.

 

[Son of Butch]

What we need to do is stop thinking of EPDs in terms of progress.
I know I'm guilty of it myself, we should just think of it in terms of change.
What one man considers progress another man can rightly call it detrimental.

 

[Son of Butch]

I have yet to breed the perfect cow or bull.

I already did, years ago I taught a cow not to eat... but then she died. :cry2:

 

[Ebenezer]

I know it takes 2 generations for the average AI bull's contributions to fit the environment. Very few can fit on the first cross but most are that way if they can even make the cut. I guess I have a hard time accepting a "home raised" pedigree where only the cows are from the source. The bulls are AI or purchased and the breeder credits themselves as a source when the herd is still basically outcrossed but called their own. Makes me wonder why they are willing to sell bulls to others and only use their own bulls as second string or only if they are from an outcross sire.

It always goes back the same question for me: what is the purpose of doing whatever you are doing: linebreeding, inbreeding, outcrossing, changing EPDs, chasing a trait, creating sale animals, buying links, ...?

There are more questions in livestock breeding that are a study of the breeders than the livestock.

 

[Son of Butch]

I would define a breeder as a seedstock producer working towards a predetermined goal.

 

[Son of Butch]

Makes me wonder why they are willing to sell bulls to others and only use their own bulls as second string or only if they are from an outcross sire.

It's one of dem dare profit schemes, trying to generate more money than they previously owned.

 

[Ebenezer]

Makes me wonder why they are willing to sell bulls to others and only use their own bulls as second string or only if they are from an outcross sire.

It's one of dem dare profit schemes, trying to generate more money than they previously owned.

Predetermined goal of herd breeding = money.

 

[Son of Butch]

Yup, a guy could have money as a goal and not even go to jail in a capitalist society.

 

[Ky hills]

Define breeder? I have cattle that have 3 generations of my prefix in them. I have yet to breed the perfect cow or bull.

That is a very productive response, I don't see anyone producing the " perfect cow or bull " there are some that will likely come close to being perfect for our particular environments, but then likely that same individual could not thrive in all environments.

 

[Ky hills]

Very good question, this is likely akin to one those philosophical questions to which there is no truly right or wrong answer, depending on how one applies the question.
For me, I think it would be a multi faceted question based on a number of factors. The first year someone is starting they may or may not have a lot of animal husbandry knowledge, yet putting a bull with some cows is in a sense breeding cattle. Having a plan and selecting animals with a particular goal in mind is a more advanced breeding. I would say that the number of generations themselves is going to vary depending on individual goals. For me it isn't at a certain generation number, but rather the point of being a "successful breeder" and my definition of that would be at the point of achieving a herd that thrived in your particular environment and management, and could replicate at a level maintaining that or improving upon it. For the record I'm not there yet, but I have a plan.

 

[CreekAngus]

I know it takes 2 generations for the average AI bull's contributions to fit the environment. Very few can fit on the first cross but most are that way if they can even make the cut. I guess I have a hard time accepting a "home raised" pedigree where only the cows are from the source. The bulls are AI or purchased and the breeder credits themselves as a source when the herd is still basically outcrossed but called their own. Makes me wonder why they are willing to sell bulls to others and only use their own bulls as second string or only if they are from an outcross sire.

It always goes back the same question for me: what is the purpose of doing whatever you are doing: linebreeding, inbreeding, outcrossing, changing EPDs, chasing a trait, creating sale animals, buying links, ...?

There are more questions in livestock breeding that are a study of the breeders than the livestock.

I think you have a great point, one I didn't ponder till now. I come at this from an outcross perspective, from the way you defined it. Most Angus seed stock breeders are outcross as you defined it, but more and more I keep looking at linebreeding programs (OCC and Sinclair of note). Now I'm thinking, I may not even qualify as a good breeder at the 4th generation, if all I'm doing is plugging in the bull of the year and just outcrossing the genetics, time and time again.

 

[Nesikep]

The more adapted and correct your initial cows are the less time it'll take... I'm about 5 generations in now after 30 years and I at least have a few cows that are well suited.. I think in a couple more generations I will have what I want more consistently

 

[Gators Rule]

Define breeder? I have cattle that have 3 generations of my prefix in them. I have yet to breed the perfect cow or bull.

Based upon the 4 generation rule, you would be classified as a Jr Breeder. :lol2:

 

[Ebenezer]

Most Angus seed stock breeders are outcross as you defined it, but more and more I keep looking at linebreeding programs (OCC and Sinclair of note). Now I'm thinking, I may not even qualify as a good breeder at the 4th generation, if all I'm doing is plugging in the bull of the year and just outcrossing the genetics, time and time again.

Everybody gets to choose what they do. In an outcross plan as you mentioned it covering many current breeders. Outcomes, the way I see it, are that you know what you had, if you stay current with new young bulls you get to discover the good and the bad as soon as possible and you never have more or less than other contemporaries. To always select "new" you need a system to select the new. That is where EPDs begin to control as you have little chance to see a lot of sibs or the full knowledge of the latest source herd that produced the bull that is hot and current. You learn from what they tell you, the numbers or the pictures they show you.

So, I'm not saying any option is wrong as it it personal choice. The constant buying of unknowns does leave a breeder with a higher degree of vulnerability in my opinion.

I will add merely for discussion purposes and not to cast stones nor to endorse. The Coneally thread discussion was short and did not give a set in stone endorsement of all bulls from there being equally desirable. I surely do not to talk about another Angus program anymore that has been over discussed here but the breeding program's results have folks with favorite bulls and semen sale sites have the semen from their bulls starting at $5 and some newer bulls would not be available for $1000 according to some. Are the programs breeding for differences or does the outcross efforts always lead to differences?

 

[Bcompton53]

Most Angus seed stock breeders are outcross as you defined it, but more and more I keep looking at linebreeding programs (OCC and Sinclair of note). Now I'm thinking, I may not even qualify as a good breeder at the 4th generation, if all I'm doing is plugging in the bull of the year and just outcrossing the genetics, time and time again.

Everybody gets to choose what they do. In an outcross plan as you mentioned it covering many current breeders. Outcomes, the way I see it, are that you know what you had, if you stay current with new young bulls you get to discover the good and the bad as soon as possible and you never have more or less than other contemporaries. To always select "new" you need a system to select the new. That is where EPDs begin to control as you have little chance to see a lot of sibs or the full knowledge of the latest source herd that produced the bull that is hot and current. You learn from what they tell you, the numbers or the pictures they show you.

So, I'm not saying any option is wrong as it it personal choice. The constant buying of unknowns does leave a breeder with a higher degree of vulnerability in my opinion.

I will add merely for discussion purposes and not to cast stones nor to endorse. The Coneally thread discussion was short and did not give a set in stone endorsement of all bulls from there being equally desirable. I surely do not to talk about another Angus program anymore that has been over discussed here but the breeding program's results have folks with favorite bulls and semen sale sites have the semen from their bulls starting at $5 and some newer bulls would not be available for $1000 according to some. Are the programs breeding for differences or does the outcross efforts always lead to differences?

It's a good thing that we don't have the same set of goals/desired traits. It would stink to have a handful of bulls getting $500/straw, and the rest getting $2. Fortunately there is a bull for each of us! I do think it's interesting when someone occasionally asks something like "are coneally bulls good?" or GAR or whoever. Sometimes there is a trend to what each big name ranch is seeking, or offering, but it's no different than saying "is ford good?". Fortunately there's a vehicle out there for everyone. A Ford Fiesta on my ranch would be about as worthless as SAV America semen. But there's always a cattleman, or an operation that sees those things as desirable.