Working dog thoughts

[mdt192]

Good afternoon, all.

My wife and I are considering purchasing a border collie for help rounding up cattle and sorting. I need opinions on whether or not it's worth it.

Our current situation: both off farm jobs which have us off farm 10 hours / day, 5 days a week. Both less than 30 y/o. We are usually running between 35 and 50 pair. Half dozen replacement heifers and half dozen feeder steers. Couple of bulls.

We are working on a lot of infrastructure (corrals / extra pens), but not where we need to be and probably 5-7 years from being there.

Most of our brood cows will follow a feed trough pulled by a UTV through anything, but we always have a few that turn and run at the first sign of the catchpen. They usually take a few calves with them when they turn tail. I've sold the worst ones about it, and a few others will take their place.

During weaning / sale day this year, we had a couple of bad apples that kept turning the entire herd of calves and culls. 6 weeks later and we still have a 4 of them that refuse to be caught. They know the barn is trouble for them and will run you over before going in there. I've been feeding the whole group of replacements and feeders in the barn, but the sale calves won't budge. This is where I'm thinking a herding dog would come in handy, and it would have paid for itself in calf weight loss from unintentional weaning and increased stress.

We've been sent videos of the dog and it's already started well on sheep and small groups of calves. 1.5 years old. The owner / trainer said she needs another few months of training before he's willing to turn her loose. She is from working stock.

My questions:

1. How much "working" will this dog need? I've been told at least once a week. Would letting my wife's goats out and letting her round them up count (a challenge for anyone without a feed bucket)? Would letting her move the feeder steers or replacement heifers between pastures be good enough? The real work would come in the spring and fall cattle workings, so only 2 days a year essentially.

2. Would this dog actually help us with moving cattle? I know this can depend on the dog and situation, but I wanted some opinions.

3. How much training will my cows need? Will they tear through everything the first time they get nipped?

Thank you in advance for your responses. I know next to nothing about dogs, much less working dogs. Everyone I know that has a "working" breed has an untrained high strung dog that doesn't listen to anything the owner tries to do with it.

 

[Travlr]

My two cents is that if you have no dog experience it would be wasted time and money to buy a dog expected to work cattle. YOU need to be trained before getting a dog.

And for damn sure get rid of any cattle that won't be led by a bucket of grain. That's the cheap and effective fix for your problems.

 

[sstterry]

One important thought to bear in mind, those dogs need to work. They can't just be left alone until you think you need them.

 

[CowboyRam]

A dog might help, but you are going to have some cows fight the dog if they have a calf. If that is the case a dog may not help you much, and cause more problems. Border Collies are great dogs, and have a lot drive in them, but I think they are a bit timid for cattle. No matter what breed of dog, they need something to do, or they get board and will find something to do. It may be something you don't want them doing.

So far within the last week my 6 month old Australian Shepherd had caught 6 doves, and two crows, and brought them to the front door. I seen him catch one of the crows.

 

[Warren Allison]

If it was older and had been worked on cattle for a while, it would probably do to let it lay on the porch til you need it. Myself, I won;t ever fool with a cow on foot..always on horseback. A couple of horses would do for your situation, and you'd have something fun to do in y'all's spare time when you didn;t need to pen cattle. Do either of you ride?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Border Collies and Australian Shepherds are pretty high energy ...always. As said, they NEED to be worked daily. If you don't work them, they will get into trouble finding something to work - even a mature one.
Training your cattle is easier than having a dog that you don't know how to train yourself.
We are not trying to be negative, but what you described is a disaster waiting to happen.
IF you were home 24/7 and you and dog could learn together every day, you might be OK.
I have owned Australian Cattle Dogs for 50+ years. They are a lot calmer. But, I would not recommend one to anyone that can't spend the time with them.

 

[faster horses]

You have gotten good advice here, IMO.
We always had working dogs and our cows were used to them.
They knew NOT to go into the cows when they were calving, they went around the calving lot.
Cows that aren't used to dogs will fight the dog and you won't get much accomplished.
Good luck to you.

 

[Son of Butch]

Good afternoon, all.

My wife and I are considering purchasing a border collie for help rounding up cattle and sorting. I need opinions on whether or not it's worth it.

Our current situation: both off farm jobs which have us off farm 10 hours / day, 5 days a week. Both less than 30 y/o. We are usually running between 35 and 50 pair. Half dozen replacement heifers and half dozen feeder steers. Couple of bulls.

We are working on a lot of infrastructure (corrals / extra pens), but not where we need to be and probably 5-7 years from being there.

Most of our brood cows will follow a feed trough pulled by a UTV through anything, but we always have a few that turn and run at the first sign of the catchpen. They usually take a few calves with them when they turn tail. I've sold the worst ones about it, and a few others will take their place.

During weaning / sale day this year, we had a couple of bad apples that kept turning the entire herd of calves and culls. 6 weeks later and we still have 4 of them that refuse to be caught. They know the barn is trouble for them and will run you over before going in there. I've been feeding the whole group of replacements and feeders in the barn, but the sale calves won't budge. This is where I'm thinking a herding dog would come in handy....

I know next to nothing about dogs, much less working dogs. Everyone I know that has a "working" breed has an untrained high strung dog that doesn't listen to anything the owner tries to do with it.

Yes, can be so frustrating working with a lack of infrastructure. A 'good' dog would help, I don't have one and at times have needed to get a 3rd person and 4 wheeler to help in those situations.

Even a 'good' dog can go to pot without a lot of attention or with a lot of down time.
So I vote against getting the dog, but IF you do; the best of luck to ya.

 

[Lucky]

Dogs need lots of attention and to be worked on cattle. I'd hire cowboys to deal with any cattle you can't catch....much cheaper and easier. Call the local salebarn they'll give you some #'s

 

[wbvs58]

Get a dog by all means but don't expect one to solve your problems now. A young dog won't block these rogue cows, she will only make them run faster and scatter more taking more cows with them. Sort out your problems first, build a bigger outer yard to feed them in and don't even try to get them in the barn until all are confident in coming up. When you do get them in make it a one way trip for the rogue ones to the salebarn.

Ken

 

[puzzled in oregon]

Don't try to start a young dog on livestock that are not dog broke. It can be really hard a young dog.

 

[ChrisB2]

I feel your pain. Can you get some of those 24 ft. freestanding panels to make alleyways or pens to help? We've had to make lanes that are 26 or so feet wide then pick up another of the panels with the front end loader and then push the uncooperative ones in. Or maybe have a seperate bunk outside for the 4 calves and move it a couple feet everyday until it is in the barn? Good luck.

 

[Dave]

I get to witness some absolutely great working dogs. We also have one who is a wreck looking for a place to happen. The first thing they need is obedience. My wife's dog just doesn't listen to me. My pup who is about 22 months shows signs of being good when it is her and me. If we are going to do something with the calves I have to put my wife's dog in the kennel.
If I have the right dog. That red Border Collie in this picture sold for $44,000 at Red Bluff last spring. Teh man owned two red dogs so it is tough telling which one this is. The black one is my old Bear dog. She was a great dog. One problem is the good ones die way too soon. Either one of these two dogs would eat that cow's lunch. My pup by herself would turn and run at a cow threatening her. Start with calves and you close by. Having a good old dog or two to work beside will help a young dog build confidence.

 

[uplandnut]

I would recommend buying more panels (24') or whatever suits your fancy and move them to places the cows have to go. The dog is going to frustrate you due to your own lack of experience. Dogs need an alpha leader or they will become the alpha.

 

[Lucky]

I standby what I said earlier but got to thinking about my neighbors blue heeler. Someone gave him this dog because they couldn't handle her. He has a regular job so I figured she'd just be another nutty heeler running around. He took his time with her though and she rides in the tractor and does everything with him on the ranch. It's been a slow process but they've really learned to work together. She watches the gate for him and helps with a wild one if she can. It was neat to see but has taken several years to get there.

 

[Named'em Tamed'em]

I've had Border Collie and Heelers for 40+ years, I've always been able to take them to work everyday it sure makes a good bonding and understanding environment. They take time.

 

[CowboyRam]

I've had Border Collie and Heelers for 40+ years, I've always been able to take them to work everyday it sure makes a good bonding and understanding environment. They take time.

I think it is very important to take them with you everywhere you go. Because I take my pup with me all the time we have really bonded. Now he can be anywhere in the house, I can go to the entry to put on my boots, and he will be there ready to go before I finish getting my boots on. Somehow he knows I'm heading outside.

 

[50/50Farms]

Good afternoon, all.

My wife and I are considering purchasing a border collie for help rounding up cattle and sorting. I need opinions on whether or not it's worth it.

Our current situation: both off farm jobs which have us off farm 10 hours / day, 5 days a week. Both less than 30 y/o. We are usually running between 35 and 50 pair. Half dozen replacement heifers and half dozen feeder steers. Couple of bulls.

We are working on a lot of infrastructure (corrals / extra pens), but not where we need to be and probably 5-7 years from being there.

Most of our brood cows will follow a feed trough pulled by a UTV through anything, but we always have a few that turn and run at the first sign of the catchpen. They usually take a few calves with them when they turn tail. I've sold the worst ones about it, and a few others will take their place.

During weaning / sale day this year, we had a couple of bad apples that kept turning the entire herd of calves and culls. 6 weeks later and we still have a 4 of them that refuse to be caught. They know the barn is trouble for them and will run you over before going in there. I've been feeding the whole group of replacements and feeders in the barn, but the sale calves won't budge. This is where I'm thinking a herding dog would come in handy, and it would have paid for itself in calf weight loss from unintentional weaning and increased stress.

We've been sent videos of the dog and it's already started well on sheep and small groups of calves. 1.5 years old. The owner / trainer said she needs another few months of training before he's willing to turn her loose. She is from working stock.

My questions:

1. How much "working" will this dog need? I've been told at least once a week. Would letting my wife's goats out and letting her round them up count (a challenge for anyone without a feed bucket)? Would letting her move the feeder steers or replacement heifers between pastures be good enough? The real work would come in the spring and fall cattle workings, so only 2 days a year essentially.

2. Would this dog actually help us with moving cattle? I know this can depend on the dog and situation, but I wanted some opinions.

3. How much training will my cows need? Will they tear through everything the first time they get nipped?

Thank you in advance for your responses. I know next to nothing about dogs, much less working dogs. Everyone I know that has a "working" breed has an untrained high strung dog that doesn't listen to anything the owner tries to do with it.

What's the breeding on your cattle? There are some breeds that will smoke a dog with vigor if they haven't been around them their whole life. I've only ever had one dog that could catch really bad cows that didn't know dogs, and she was a firecracker.

If a cow isn't used to it and the dog isn't pretty damn good at it, you can cost yourself some fence repair. I'm not discouraging it as a practice and I like a good dog, but there's a few other things you kind of need in the mix. If you have any really, really bad cows that can't be caught as is despite all efforts, I'd get them off the place first even if you have to hire cow catchers or sell them to one of the few traders that buy wild ones on range delivery. A really bad cow plus a dog can ultimately blow up in your face, quite literally too if you don't get the hell out of the way on time.

As far as training, it's partly instinct and partly getting them trained to the task and purpose, but dogs that are trained from an early age on livestock can still get busted out of it if they get scared.

To an extent, though it's a loose answer, they have to have it in them to start with, just like a horse. Any hammerheaded nag can be used to haze cattle and most horses can be trained to do some light roping, but if they don't have cow sense then they're always subject to do the wrong thing at the wrong time and leave you in a spot you don't want to be in.

Cowboy s**t is fun, but cattleman s**t beats the hell out of it if you can swing it.

 

[Brute 23]

A dog will not help your situation. Keep feeding the cattle in the pens and see what you can do to improve that set up or outsmart them. Be ready to sell every runner... no second chances. Worse case bring some cowboys in to help.

Jan and Feb is a good time to catch cows.

 

[sstterry]

Border Collies and Australian Shepherds are pretty high energy ...always. As said, they NEED to be worked daily. If you don't work them, they will get into trouble finding something to work - even a mature one.

We had Border Collies when I was growing up, and this is 100% true. The are smart and great dogs, but extremely high energy. If they are left alone very long, they will go out and "work" the cattle themselves. Definitely not good for the cattle.