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My cattle are also housed outdoors, no shed, all winter in Wisconsin. No woodlot access. They invariably get lice every year in Feb/Mar. They are fed well and get a good mineral. They only get antibiotics if they need it, which amounts to one animal per year on average. Yes, I have seen the lice. I spot check the cows once a month and see nothing until that time of year. They have heavy coats. My theory is they alway have a few but the wetter conditions we get with those heavy coats allows them to proliferate. It also tends to be an unhealthy time of the year for cattle and people alike so I think immune function may be decreased as well whether due to photoperiod or the weather. The steers are affected as well as the cows so gestation period doesn't seem to be the answer. FWIW.
AllForage":19t27zmy said:
Sometimes you have to remind yourself that cattlemen of the past got by with a lot less and made it. What would you do if there wasn't a medicine cabinet to run to.
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Yup, and they amputated limbs in the past with whiskey and a stick in the teeth for anesthesia and made it, just a lot more unpleasant and poorer results.

I'm not here to start an organic vs. non-organic war here as I stand on neither side. I am an advocate for limited judicious use of all tools (medications, homeopathy, or otherwise) we have, a very ignored middle ground that gets left out of those discussions. The all or nothing logic disinterests me. If someone's methods work for them and their animals are well-cared for I respect that. If they look like crap I won't, don't care what side you are on. Stockmanship is about how you work to eliminate the problems you have, not what you throw at it. You're either Smokey the Bear or the firefighter.
 
redcow,

That was my point all along. That the middle ground is judicious limited use. You articulated that very well. I simply stated what I have done and was not trying to "convert" people to organic type cattle managment. The purpose of my first post was to show there is a different way than the norm. If a continual health issue comes up, question why it is there and examine all aspects to find the source. If something can be done differently then change it. Like the pond example. If drinking and wading in ponds is causing worm infestations then pump them to a tank. If an issue persists then absolutely use medications. A lot of times as stockmen we refuse to open up to the fact we could do things a little differently. As little bit of lice is natural most likely. As long as it isn't horrific then let it run its course. Sheep are a great example of being able to select towards worm resistance. Takes a long time, but it can be done. I never want to sound as if I am judging, just think it is healthy to be able to explain why I am doing it. Whether anyone likes it or not the profitable market is and will be cattle raised with little meds.
 
AllForage":q9ws88iu said:
Jim,

Have you considered the woods as part of the problem. They are most likely harboring there and the infestation is occuring there. As far as another natural lice control, Diatomaceous earth. Dusted on the backs periodically. Fleet farm is now carrying it up here in Appleton. We vaccinate humans for some things that are not exactly a problem unless very risky behaviour occurs. I simply have never and I have not had a problem. It is a whole farm management system that has worked for me.

I feed the kelp, redmond salt, and mid-west bio-ag mineral seperately free-choice. The chelated iodine in the kelp is what wards off pinkeye.

Sometimes you have to remind yourself that cattlemen of the past got by with a lot less and made it. What would you do if there wasn't a medicine cabinet to run to.

Have you noticed that certain cows are routinely becoming liced every year. If so you could add that to your selection process. Just like fly resistance can be selected for.
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I'll go along with the diatomaceous earth...good product for c ontrol of insecticides and external parasites but does NOT do some of the things some people think it does. It does not control internal parsites nor does it affect feed utilization and milk production in any positive way. Redmond products are pretty much like the Amway stuff...just a lot of hype. As for Basic H.....what is in it IS NOT even publici knowledge so you really don't have a clue what you're giving your cattle. Just taking someone's word on it. As for the kelp meal. Pretty much a waste of money. contains a very small amount of iodine, BUT there is no such thing as "Chelated" Iodine. Especially in a so-called natural product like kelp meal.

Forage you're spending a lot of money on stuff that has no proven track record at all and everything about is based on nothing but hearsay.
 
TEXASBRED,

One more time, I simply stated what I use. I was not advocating others to use it. You have to come to your own conclusions. The DE was a suggestion. I did not make wonder claims. The redmond is a naturally mined unrefined salt. That is it! It is 3 bucks more than the local feed store's salt so hold the BS comments. Thirdly, kelp's mineral content is in organic form so that the animal can process or bypass. It is also in almost perfect balance. Mineral can be toxic if not in proper proportion to each other. Acidulated or synthetic cattle minerals force the animal to metabolize its contents. The amount of iodine in kelp injected in synthetic form has killed cattle. If you think protein from urea is the same as protein from say alfalfa then we disagree.

Just posted to show alternative methods. Folks can just go to the local extension office and hear what you had to say. I have made a habit of listening to people who actually make a profit and control their market. Not pray for good market prices.

I'm done.
 
The Mineralyx tubs I use as my mineral source have iodine in them. The sea kelp is more of an experiment for me - to see if they will consume it and if it seems to do anything worthwhile for them. Hard to separate the effects of the kelp from the mineralyx without a careful controlled experiment which I am not equipped nor interested enough to attempt.

I will try some diatomacteous earth when we get to lice time. I think the benefits of outwintering with some woods for shelter far outweigh any negatives from the woods possibly contributing to lice populations. jmho. Jim
 
Jim,

If I had woods I would use them also. Let me know how the DE works. Try to see if certain individuals are getting it worse then others.
I tried to look up mineralyx and couldn't find it. I have read that cattle on synthetic minerals won't take to kelp as heavily until it is pulled away. The same with urea lick tanks. Nobody knows why. Get a hold of the Salatin book "Salad Bar beef" and read the mineral chapter. Just to head off the extension agents out there, I do not agree with everything he advocates! The source and form of the iodine seems to be what matters with the pinkeye thing. Once again, it is expensive so you have to decide if it is important. Kelp is like raw milk. Just because you start drinking it doesn't all your ailments will go away. A lot of other things go into it.
 
AllForage":233u6gfw said:
TEXASBRED,

One more time, I simply stated what I use. I was not advocating others to use it. You have to come to your own conclusions. The DE was a suggestion. I did not make wonder claims. The redmond is a naturally mined unrefined salt. That is it! It is 3 bucks more than the local feed store's salt so hold the BS comments. Thirdly, kelp's mineral content is in organic form so that the animal can process or bypass. It is also in almost perfect balance. Mineral can be toxic if not in proper proportion to each other. Acidulated or synthetic cattle minerals force the animal to metabolize its contents. The amount of iodine in kelp injected in synthetic form has killed cattle. If you think protein from urea is the same as protein from say alfalfa then we disagree.

Just posted to show alternative methods. Folks can just go to the local extension office and hear what you had to say. I have made a habit of listening to people who actually make a profit and control their market. Not pray for good market prices.

I'm done.
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So much BS in one post. Why pay$3 a xtra for salt. Xtra for the impurities?? Redmond salt and conditioner is snake oil. As for kelp. It contains a bit of iodine. You don't feed much iodine from it as it's very diluted so the cattle get very little iodine from the kelp meal. Iodine is pure element. Not organice nor inorganic. It is not a compound as compounds contain oxygen, carbon and nitrogen. synthetic Minerals?? Tell me some that are in catle feeds and minerals. And don't put chelates, protienates and amino acid complexes in your grouping. As for protein in UREA. There is exactly "zero' however there is 287% equivalent protein in the form of nitrogen. What is the 1st thing a cow does with protein?

Now feed what you want to it's certainly your business. But I see a lot of money being wasted and you still can't certify taht your beeef are "all natural" because you don't know what is in that gunk you use for worming.
 
SRBeef":2kz8sghx said:
The Mineralyx tubs I use as my mineral source have iodine in them. The sea kelp is more of an experiment for me - to see if they will consume it and if it seems to do anything worthwhile for them. Hard to separate the effects of the kelp from the mineralyx without a careful controlled experiment which I am not equipped nor interested enough to attempt.

I will try some diatomacteous earth when we get to lice time. I think the benefits of outwintering with some woods for shelter far outweigh any negatives from the woods possibly contributing to lice populations. jmho. Jim
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Jim DE is a pretty darn good product. Kills anything with an exoskeleton which includes the good bugs too. Works good for ticks, flies, fleas, roaches and garden pests. Some think that if fed to livestock it will control internal parasites but to date no real proof but harmless anyway. Some nutritionist and snake oil salesmen are pushign "Tasco" which is just seakelp with a big marketing budget behind it. The cattle will eat it but again, there is no measurable benefit to it and definitely a heck of a lot of expense. The Mineralyx tubs should contain EDDI as a very bioavailable source of iodine.
 
TexasBred":119vg3zf said:
Kills anything with an exoskeleton which includes the good bugs too. Works good for ticks, flies, fleas, roaches and garden pests.
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Apparantly ants didn;t read the book!
 
dun":2n4q0u2u said:
TexasBred":2n4q0u2u said:
Kills anything with an exoskeleton which includes the good bugs too. Works good for ticks, flies, fleas, roaches and garden pests.
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Apparantly ants didn;t read the book!
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Probably not...a lot of humans havent' read it either...It kills the ones that get it on them. You just seldom get it on the entire mound population.
 
"my market dictates I use no chemicals."

I've got news for you; Basic H IS a 'chemical' product, so if you're dosing your animals with it, you're not being 'truthful' to your clients. And, you're using it in a manner/application for which it was never intended or approved.
What's in it, we don't know, other than it's a 'surfactant solution'.

Being a veterinary scientist, with some knowledge of biology and physiology(of both the cow and the parasites), there's no logical reason to anticipate that diluting a surfactant solution in an animal's drinking water would have any effect whatsoever on internal parasites.
I doubt that it does any harm, but if you think you are seeing 'results', it's just that - you just 'think' you are.
I have no dog in this fight - as I don't sell or recommend any treatments/preventatives, but I call BS on the Basic H thing, as well as the con artists who advocate diatomaceous earth as a 'dewormer'.

Perhaps the surfactant in Basic H is Snake oil, eh?

All we ever see is anecdotal tales of how the animals 'came back from the brink of death' after getting a dose of DE or BH, and how their eyes and coat are now so shiny; bet they can run faster and jump higher, too!
No studies showing that a parasite problem was present to begin with, or that the 'miracle compound' reduces fecal egg counts, etc.
I've not seen any studies on Basic H, but have seen the work on DE - and it has no effect on internal parasites - unless you formulate a ration with about 5% DE - makes the fecal pellets/pats dry & crumbly - but they had a hard time getting the animals to eat it with that much DE, due to the dustiness factor.
I have seen 'outbreaks' of bladder stones/blocked urethra/ruptured urinary bladders in feedlot steers and goat wethers fed a feed containing DE, as hawked by a DE salesman.
 
Lucky_P":2p6k8a8p said:
"my market dictates I use no chemicals."

I've got news for you; Basic H IS a 'chemical' product, so if you're dosing your animals with it, you're not being 'truthful' to your clients. And, you're using it in a manner/application for which it was never intended or approved.
What's in it, we don't know, other than it's a 'surfactant solution'.

Being a veterinary scientist, with some knowledge of biology and physiology(of both the cow and the parasites), there's no logical reason to anticipate that diluting a surfactant solution in an animal's drinking water would have any effect whatsoever on internal parasites.
I doubt that it does any harm, but if you think you are seeing 'results', it's just that - you just 'think' you are.
I have no dog in this fight - as I don't sell or recommend any treatments/preventatives, but I call BS on the Basic H thing, as well as the con artists who advocate diatomaceous earth as a 'dewormer'.

Perhaps the surfactant in Basic H is Snake oil, eh?

All we ever see is anecdotal tales of how the animals 'came back from the brink of death' after getting a dose of DE or BH, and how their eyes and coat are now so shiny; bet they can run faster and jump higher, too!
No studies showing that a parasite problem was present to begin with, or that the 'miracle compound' reduces fecal egg counts, etc.
I've not seen any studies on Basic H, but have seen the work on DE - and it has no effect on internal parasites - unless you formulate a ration with about 5% DE - makes the fecal pellets/pats dry & crumbly - but they had a hard time getting the animals to eat it with that much DE, due to the dustiness factor.
I have seen 'outbreaks' of bladder stones/blocked urethra/ruptured urinary bladders in feedlot steers and goat wethers fed a feed containing DE, as hawked by a DE salesman.
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I second the "well said", Thank you. What do you think about DE as a dusting for external lice in the coat in late winter? Or just stick with the fall pour of Cydectin, Ivomec, etc ?

Jim
 
Jim the DE should work for lice year round. Rain will wash it off pretty quickly but if you can get it on the lice they're history. I even rub it into the dog's hair several times a year and my wife uses it in her "little" organic garden. ;-)
 
TexasBred":2lwyicpz said:
Jim the DE should work for lice year round. Rain will wash it off pretty quickly but if you can get it on the lice they're history. I even rub it into the dog's hair several times a year and my wife uses it in her "little" organic garden. ;-)
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Thank you, TB. I don't have a major lice problem, just noticed a couple animals late last winter with spots on their coats they had obviously been rubbing on trees. Checked with vet, he said lice were common in late winter when the dewormer had worn off and coats were long, shaggy and wet.

DE sounds like something I will try if I see this again. It would be useful especially on the steers being harvested in late April.

Jim
 
Jim if you buy some DE see if you can get a 50 lb. bag. Should cost between $20 and $25. A lot of stores as well as online suppliers have small containers of it but charge like $3 to $5 for a one pound container. It doesn't go bad so it won't hurt to buy big and hold. You'll find a lot of uses for it.
 
TexasBred":nysfd3r5 said:
Jim if you buy some DE see if you can get a 50 lb. bag. Should cost between $20 and $25. A lot of stores as well as online suppliers have small containers of it but charge like $3 to $5 for a one pound container. It doesn't go bad so it won't hurt to buy big and hold. You'll find a lot of uses for it.
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If you have any swimming pool supply stores they will have it for use in filters.
 
I've got no doubt that DE can be an effective part of an external parasite control program - but I have no idea whether or not any benefit gained equals or excedes its cost. But I do know that DE has NOT been shown to have any significant positive effect when used as a 'dewormer' - unless you consider its mineral content.
 

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