Wild All In Calves?

[millstreaminn]

Anybody have any Deer Valley All In calves that are wild? I have 7 and all but 2 of them are nervous, wild things. All of my other cows are dog friendly but this group of calves are something else. I know they will grow out of it some, but I'm not used to the calves running out of the barn when I walk in.

 

[kd4au]

One of my neighbors has some All In calves and he hasn't said anything about them being wild. They were off of some heifers he AI 'ed. He must think they are ok he bought a ALL IN son and bred his cows and they will start calving next month. The last Deer Valley sale I attended they had several pens of ALL IN sons and to me they were the best group of any bulls sons in that sale.

 

[Katpau]

Millstreaminn
I think your observations are not unusual. Our Livestock Assn. puts on an Ultrasound clinic and this summer one of the participants brought a large group of yearlings that included a few All in's. They were pretty high strung. While the other cattle moved through the chute without incident, those calves crashed through like their tail was on fire. A breeder I know sells quite a few bulls at his annual bull sale. He mentioned that he had to cull a really nice All In bull because he was too hard to handle. The bulls EPD for Docility would not indicate a problem, but I am highly suspicious of disposition scores since most are turned in by breeders trying to sell those bloodlines. Unlike weights, disposition scores are highly subjective. I believe the bad ones, but the good ones I look at with suspicion.

 

[millstreaminn]

Anything out of the ordinary will make them jump up and high tail it out of the barn. Spraying them for flies, running a weed eater outside the barn etc. Things that my older cows will sleep through will set these calves off.

 

[Lazy M]

This is the type of info that makes these boards valuable. Thanks

 

[Ky hills]

I have no experience with All In, but I do believe that the docility EPD's are not always to the level of credibility of say birth weight, or WW. I used a very popular up and coming AI bull a few years back that was heavily touted as excellent disposition. The calves that I got from him came easy and grew relatively well for a heifer bull. The calves how ever were the craziest we have ever had before or since. The same cows mated to other AI bulls or our bulls had calves that were as calm as they were with the exception of one. The bull has since dropped in his doc EPD, but is above breed average. This is one reason why I don't have complete confidence in EPD's

 

[Katpau]

Ky hills,
Would you mind sharing the name of the bull that gave you those crazy calves? I trust high accuracy EPDs for many traits, but docility is not reported by many and therefore can be heavily influenced by just a few larger producers. I have learned to be distrustful of that EPD even with higher accuracy. Part of the problem is AAA does not collect information until the cattle have reached a year of age. Most of the time, the crazies have already been culled from the registered herd and sold as feeder calves before they reach that age. If you would rather not say the bulls name on a public forum, could you private message me? Thanks.

 

[Hogtiming]

I have/had several All In calves. Never had a mean or nervous one

 

[elkwc]

I'm skeptical of several EPD's. On Angus the milk EPD is one of the few I pay attention too. I attended an angus production sale in 2014 to help a friend purchase a bull. The first Angus production sale I had attended in several years. Looked at and studied the EPD's for a couple of weeks before the sale. Most were AI sired and had great docility ratings. When walking through the pens before the sale I marked off a few bulls due to the way they acted. Then during the sale at least 1/3 pawed the ground, blew snot and a few hit the fence. The next year one hit a plywood barrier put up for the ring man to stand behind and shoved it into him. Again good EPD ratings. So I don't trust them. Docility is important to us as a lady in her mid 70's feeds and checks on them and I don't want anything with a bad disposition. I have seen some ALL In calves and never noticed it but will watch for it. Have heard of some and also seen a couple of TenX calves that were flighty. Again many times you don't know the cow either so it can come from either side. I walk through our cattle a lot and also those I'm looking to purchase. If they act the least bit flighty or nervous when I ease them off to themselves I either cull them or don't buy them.

 

[Katpau]

Most data used to calculate EPDs is reported by seed-stock breeders. A serious problem with the Docility EPD is that it is not reported to the Angus Association until the cattle are one year old. The recommended method for evaluation is to observe them exiting the chute. By the time calves are a year old most have been through the chutes multiple times and are familiar enough with the process to move through smoothly. The wildest of the calves have probably been culled from the seed-stock program prior to their first birthday. Most of them will never be registered and may not have any data reported. Any problems with those that remain can easily be missed as long as the calves are in the herd and in familiar surroundings. A better way to evaluate might be to move each animal away from the comfort of the herd and observe how they react. Most people are not going to spend the time to do that, so it is easy to miss many docility problems.

 

[Son of Butch]

I think your observations are not unusual. .....this summer one of the participants brought a large group of yearlings
that included a few All in's. They were pretty high strung. .... those calves crashed through like their tail was on fire.
.......had to cull a really nice All In bull because he was too hard to handle.
Unlike weights, disposition scores are highly subjective. I believe the bad ones, but the good ones I look at with suspicion.

I can't add any first hand knowledge. But just a passing thought.

Deer Valley All In isn't expected to improve docility being breed average doc 14, so perhaps the root problem is the
Black Angus breed has more of a docility problem on average than most realize and more than many angus breeders
care to acknowledge? So maybe more attention should paid to selecting > doc 19 (top 25%) before it gets out of hand.
I too agree with looking at epd doc with suspicion and that is why doc 20 is kind of my cut off.

Certainly not scientific, but I've heard more antidotes of farmers being rolled by a "Black" cow than any other breed.
One advantage black angus have are the sheer number of proven A.I. sires to choose from, so there are many over
doc 21 (top 20%) available. One that looks really good to me is Mil Bar Hickok at ABS solid numbers across the board
and doc 33 (top 1%) to boot.

 

[Ky hills]

I think your observations are not unusual. .....this summer one of the participants brought a large group of yearlings
that included a few All in's. They were pretty high strung. .... those calves crashed through like their tail was on fire.
.......had to cull a really nice All In bull because he was too hard to handle.
Unlike weights, disposition scores are highly subjective. I believe the bad ones, but the good ones I look at with suspicion.

I can't add any first hand knowledge. But just a passing thought.

Deer Valley All In isn't expected to improve docility being breed average doc 14, so perhaps the root problem is the
Black Angus breed has more of a docility problem on average than most realize and more than many angus breeders
care to acknowledge? So maybe more attention should paid to selecting > doc 19 (top 25%) before it gets out of hand.
I too agree with looking at epd doc with suspicion and that is why doc 20 is kind of my cut off.

Certainly not scientific, but I've heard more antidotes of farmers being rolled by a "Black" cow than any other breed.
One advantage black angus have are the sheer number of proven A.I. sires to choose from, so there are many over
doc 21 (top 20%) available. One that looks really good to me is Mil Bar Hickok at ABS solid numbers across the board
and doc 33 (top 1%) to boot.

I tend to agree with you, that the Angus breed seems to have an issue with docility. There is an extremely large base of Angus, so I'm sure there are quite a few "good" ones" in terms of docility, but I definitely see a lot of them both registered and commercial that I would not want on my place due to their dispositions. I started noticing over time that when buying
feeder calves, that some of the black calves were more likely to be flighty than others. Some would be fine and then others would be plum crazy, and some were all points in between. I had similar issues when switching from steers to developing heifers. I usually had 20 or more % that were culled very early at a financial loss to me, because I did not want to sell them as replacements, and did not want them ruining the bunch they would have run with. I like the Angus breed and tried a couple of different times to build a small registered herd. I eventually gave up on that and just have a handful now. I then started buying BWF heifers, most have been ok, but still get more disposition problems than I like, a few of those have been dangerous. I have been moving more towards a Hereford cow herd, they are not perfect, but I have only culled 1 over disposition. I know that any breed can have problematic individuals, but I do think there is a disproportionate problem in the black Angus breed. I am not anti Angus at all, but have chosen to move in a different direction largely due to the disposition issues.

 

[coachg]

I have 5 All In calves born last fall ,4 heifers and a bull that we kept. The bull I interact with every day and he is calm. The 4 heifers I see every day but have only worked 3-4 times. They are typical heifers but not wild. I really like all 5 and would breed to him again ! Currently not A I ing but he would be my choice.

 

[VirginiaCattle]

I used All In on all my cows for two years. The docility was what I expected with a 14 epd. Most were great calves. I would say 2 out of every 100 were wild. I just calved 35 All In heifers this Spring and didn't pull any. That wasn't the case with daughters of other calving ease bulls. I have a set of 39 All In heifers I bred to QH Manning for next Spring and they are the nicest looking group I've ever raised. The cows and heifers aren't crazy. I have used bulls like Total in the past and they aren't as calm as those but I've found cows that are too calm can be difficult to work in their own way.

 

[Son of Butch]

Anybody have any Deer Valley All In calves that are wild? I have 7 and all but 2 of them are nervous, wild things.
All of my other cows are dog friendly but this group of calves are something else.
I know they will grow out of it some, but I'm not used to the calves running out of the barn when I walk in.

I think your observations are not unusual... this summer one of the participants brought a large group of yearlings
that included a few Allin's. They were pretty high strung... those calves crashed through like their tail was on fire.
.... had to cull a really nice All In bull because he was too hard to handle.

Looks like there is something to it as his docility score keeps slipping away from slightly above breed average
to average and now doc 12 slightly below breed average at 60th percentile.... bottom 40%