Why does heavy marbling mean a steer can't have a rear?

[hornedfrogbbq]

I'm tossing this out there to the older folks (or any younger folks that think they have an answer): When I look at herds that have a heavy marbling trait, their bulls for sale all look like they have the rear end of a waygu. They don't carry a ton of muscle in the back of them compared to herds that have more moderate marbling. Maybe those are just my eyes and you all see certain herds that do have above average marbling and think they are equally as muscled, deep in the flank, as other bulls. Is there some reason this truly seems to be mutually exclusive? Why can't we have both? If you think certain herds have both, please advise. I sure don't see it and i think i look at like 400+ sales a year.

 

[W.B.]

Look at Connealy Spur. My Spur yearlings are nicely muscled and heifers look like females should. Not like some of the cresty necked carcass genetics I see.

 

[Ebenezer]

Traits are linked to type. Breed for type, get traits. Breed for traits, get type.

 

[Son of Butch]

When I look at herds that have a heavy marbling trait, their bulls for sale all look like they have
the rear end of a waygu. They don't carry a ton of muscle in the back of them compared to herds
that have more moderate marbling. Is there some reason this truly seems to be mutually exclusive?
Why can't we have both?

It has to do with the biology of how an animal utilizes energy and stores excess fat.

Dairy breeds such as Holsteins will 1st store fat within the muscle (marbling) before a cover layer.
Beef breeds 1st store fat in a layer as a covering over the muscle before storing within the muscle.
Storing fat within the muscle may or may not limit muscle size, shape and growth. (I don't know)
We probably can have both, but genetic selection is a long slow process and somewhat limited by
what's in the genetic pool from which we select.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

If you really want more butt, your going to have to increase lean meat production.
Continentals have traditionally been heavier muscled overall than English cattle, but lacked carcass quality and feed efficiency, which English cattle did have. It's no wonder cross breeding is so productive.
Have to ask yourself what you want, and go from there.
Lean muscle for some "free" pounds?
Or quality to try for a premium?

 

[BC]

Muscling and marbling are antagonistic.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Muscling and marbling are antagonistic.

BC that's a short, correct and simple explanation.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

All excellent comments.
I also put the blame on too many breeders are looking at their papers INSTEAD of looking at their animals. You can have both, but it takes picking and choosing what bulls give you the results you want. But, bottom line, you have to LOOK at your cattle. Paper does not give you structure, volume, muscling, etc.

 

[kcarr716]

Muscling and marbling are antagonistic.

I agree that this is somewhat true in the same way that birthweight and weaning weight are antagonistic. It is often the case and if you look entirely at one you will lose the other but you can find animals with both. One we have used quite a bit is that excels in both of those areas is exar powersource 4723b, his calves tend to be very thick and well muscled and his marbling epd is currently 1.11

 

[Nesikep]

Muscling and marbling are antagonistic.

I agree that this is somewhat true in the same way that birthweight and weaning weight are antagonistic. It is often the case and if you look entirely at one you will lose the other but you can find animals with both. One we have used quite a bit is that excels in both of those areas is exar powersource 4723b, his calves tend to be very thick and well muscled and his marbling epd is currently 1.11

EPD's are valid within the breed, so he may have a better than breed average for marbling, but that doesn't mean he'd have as much as an average Jersey.... Also, carcass traits are usually pretty low accuracy compared to BW, etc

 

[kcarr716]

Muscling and marbling are antagonistic.

I agree that this is somewhat true in the same way that birthweight and weaning weight are antagonistic. It is often the case and if you look entirely at one you will lose the other but you can find animals with both. One we have used quite a bit is that excels in both of those areas is exar powersource 4723b, his calves tend to be very thick and well muscled and his marbling epd is currently 1.11

EPD's are valid within the breed, so he may have a better than breed average for marbling, but that doesn't mean he'd have as much as an average Jersey.... Also, carcass traits are usually pretty low accuracy compared to BW, etc

Right, but the question wasnt "why can't an animal have the most marbling and most muscle of any breed out there?" It seemed to be more along the line of "why does it seem in herds that select for for marbling muscle mass is sacrificed?"

What I gave as an example was not intended to answer the first hypothetical question but to provide further insight on the quoted answer to the original question.

Also, yes, carcass epds tend to be less accurate but the bull I mentioned is not exactly completely unproven with over 50% accuracy. Also, there are probably better examples of bulls combining the two traits out there, that was just one that came to mind that among the Angus breed I feel is very solid in both to show that while the traits do counter each other some it is not a yes or no thing

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

kcarr - you are absolutely correct. You can have your cake & eat it too when it comes to our cattle - of any breed. You have to do things in MODERATION. Going "gung ho" on 1 trait will soon give you traits you didn't want. Breeding decisions should be based on the whole picture.

 

[Cornfed01]

Muscling and marbling are antagonistic.

I agree that this is somewhat true in the same way that birthweight and weaning weight are antagonistic. It is often the case and if you look entirely at one you will lose the other but you can find animals with both. One we have used quite a bit is that excels in both of those areas is exar powersource 4723b, his calves tend to be very thick and well muscled and his marbling epd is currently 1.11

In regards to BW vs WW, I tend to agree.
But a person can hack that a little by selecting for bulls with a short gestation period in my opinion.

I think you can get away with a little more bone and width in those bulls as well, without sacrificing calving ease.