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Double R Ranch":3t89z116 said:
dun":3t89z116 said:
They all get the squirts at green grass time. Could squirt it through a screendoor and never touch it!

Mine do to. This is extreme. Not "normal" for green season.
Double R

Just a heads up...

Mature liver fluke don't live very long and they aren't the ones doing the damage. Its the immature (Larvae, I think) form that tunnels through the liver causing the anemia and unthriftiness. What I am trying to say in a longwinded way is don't just treat these, treat all your cattle as all of them will be invected to some degree.

The response to liverfluke treatment is quite radical, treated effectively you won't recognise them three weeks later, treated uneffectively you have just worsen the situation. The severe diarhea and losing of weight when on good grass is very typical of conical fluke. A much harder to treat problem. Do a search on the internet about it and get a product that will hit them as well as the liverfluke and treat the worst affected cattle this way, you may have to make their treatment an ongoing process for about 3 months before you'll see real results as the small intestine is usually affected very badly.

Routine liverfluke treatments will prevent future severe infestations if you treat just before the change of seasons. It may be that the breeder sold you infected cattle, but unless you bought them from out of state, its more a managemnet issue than blaming the breeder issue.

Good luck and keep us updated, if you have other questions pm me flukes is just one of the everyday hardships here
 
Just a heads up...

Mature liver fluke don't live very long and they aren't the ones doing the damage. Its the immature (Larvae, I think) form that tunnels through the liver causing the anemia and unthriftiness. What I am trying to say in a longwinded way is don't just treat these, treat all your cattle as all of them will be invected to some degree.

The response to liverfluke treatment is quite radical, treated effectively you won't recognise them three weeks later, treated uneffectively you have just worsen the situation. The severe diarhea and losing of weight when on good grass is very typical of conical fluke. A much harder to treat problem. Do a search on the internet about it and get a product that will hit them as well as the liverfluke and treat the worst affected cattle this way, you may have to make their treatment an ongoing process for about 3 months before you'll see real results as the small intestine is usually affected very badly.

Routine liverfluke treatments will prevent future severe infestations if you treat just before the change of seasons. It may be that the breeder sold you infected cattle, but unless you bought them from out of state, its more a managemnet issue than blaming the breeder issue.

Good luck and keep us updated, if you have other questions pm me flukes is just one of the everyday hardships here


Thanks for the response. I might have miswrote on the treatment. We are treating ALL of our cattle and yes the cows in ? are from out of state. ONLY the cows from this particular breeder are we having problems with. We will be treating everyone and we are doing so via the vets prescription.
There was a LARGE amount of damage and heavy infestation in the liver but we found nothing in any other organs.
I don't expect to see an overnight change. These things don't work that way.
We run a strict worming schedule here are were very surprised to find that we weren't doing enough. Kind of frustrating when you are following the veterinarians protocals and find they aren't enough. Also that we didn't catch it sooner. We talked with the vet about the cattle that were not holding to our standards and it was never caught.
Thanks for the imput. I will be looking up the rest of your recomendation as my faith in the vet is a little small right now. If this conical fluke is a possibility then we will be safe and treat for it as well.
Thanks for the help! Will keep you all posted.
Double R
 
We had a serious fluke problem several years ago and have treated for it since discovery. Initially we treated all the cattle twice a year, but now are doing it only once in most cases, and sometimes not at all. The drug is trichabendazole (here it comes in Fasinex 10 oral, and Genesis Ultra pour-on, the latter now our application of choice) and it hits every stage of the parasite.

There is some suggestion that cattle with good copper levels in their livers are not, or are less affected by fluke. My experience would support that in that we have in recent years been supplementing copper by injection (our deficiency appears to be caused by high levels of iron in the pastures, so only by injecting it directly can we address the problem) and on our kill sheets for the cull cows, which are often untreated for the year preceding slaughter, we're no longer seeing reports of live fluke.

When we first discovered both fluke and severe copper deficiency, treatment put an average 100kg/220lbs back on each cow.
 
I found this interesting.... perhaps copper sulfate is the answer.
the link if you want to read the entire article is here: http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/press/cattletop10.htm about 2/3 of the way down on the page.....
Copper and worms

I have not used any proprietary drenches for just on 30 years now. Copper sulfate, with various additions, was used for many years prior to the advent of artificial chemical drenches in the late 1950s. The copper was mixed with either carbon tetrachloride (a very poisonous cleaning fluid), lead arsenate (another dangerous poison) or nicotine sulphate, which was possibly the safest of the three. I very much doubt if the reported deaths were often due to copper poisoning.

Copper toxicity causes liver damage which, if not treated, is fatal. We found out that when copper is administered with dolomite, there is little risk unless the cattle have been grazing heliotrope or some other weed high in copper like Patterson's curse or St. John's wort; however, if they had, the chance of a worm burden would be virtually nil, because of the high copper content of all three.

According to the Department of Primary Industry in Queensland, the blood serum levels of copper in a bovine should be between 500 and 1,100 milliliters per liter, at which levels worm infestations would be unlikely. In all cases of suspected worm infestation, a count should be taken either by the vet, or as many farmers the world over these days do, examining the manure with a microscope (a school quality microscope will do).

Long standing copper overload can apparently be corrected by giving the affected cow dolomite on a permanent basis. This can be given with an injection of vitamin B15 (10 cc), Pangamic acid (10 cc) and vitamin C (20 cc) in the same syringe once a week. This has been tried in the field on farms where too much copper has been spread on the land. For immediate copper poisoning, give the beast a tablespoon of dolomite and vitamin C powder by mouth every few hours, and 10 cc of vitamin B15 with 30 cc of sodium ascorbate (vitamin C) in the same syringe by injection. This can be given every few hours, although a calf that I first did this work on recovered fully in an hour and a half and further doses were not necessary. Signs of copper poisoning are misery and a hunched up appearance — in effect, acute belly ache due to liver pain.

According to Justine Glass, black animals need about six times as more copper than white ones. Consult the section on copper for deficiency signs.

Initially several friends who ran cattle, horses, sheep or goats experimented using copper instead of proprietary drenches, with very satisfactory results. The only controlled experiment was performed with goats and the Depart ment of Agriculture did the tests. Half were given the latest state-of-the-art drench (not Ivermectin), and half were given the copper sulfate/dolomite/vitamin C dose. The results were equal — 100 percent clear in both cases.

When I first started using copper sulfate instead of proprietary drenches, I could not find any guidelines and Dr. Albrecht, whose works show that copper prevents worm infestations, does not mention dosage quantities. A retired vet lent me a copy of the British Veterinary Codex (1952) and I was able to work out amounts from that source. I had reckoned that monogastrics need about half the amount on body weight that ruminants require; however, work done by the University of Minnesota on ponies and copper requirements suggests that equines actually top the list as far as copper requirement or tolerance goes.

I have discussed running copper through the diet with various vets and at least one did not have apoplexy, but was genuinely impressed and interested because to use his exact words, "We have come to the end of the line with proprietary drenches." That was 18 years ago and the situation has not improved with the years.

-----------------------------

then this article on the research of the worms and if you want to read this entire article here is the link: http://www.k-state.edu/parasitology/cla ... ene07.html

but here are the recommendations and I find it odd that they recommend using copper sulfate on the field to kill the snails but recommend pharmaceuticals for the cattle...........

8. Diagnosis, Treatment and Management
1. Large, unembryonated eggs in feces
2. Triclabendazole has broad-spectrum activity against both adults and larval stages. Treated bait is effective in some areas to control flukes in wild populations
3. Rafoxanide kills immature flukes
4. Oxyclozanide kills adults fluke
5. Separation of cervids and livestock to prevent domestic animals from being heavily infected. Most infections in domestic animals occur as animals graze in contaminated wetlands
6. Removal of snails from buffer zones between cervids and livestock, which may include use of copper sulphate to kill snails or draining of some non-essential wetlands
7. Translocation of infected cervids from endemic areas into non-endemic areas should not be allowed
 
Howdy all,
Wanted to update you on what has happened since worming with the ivomec plus wormer.
All of the cattle that we still had from this particular breeder (that the butchered cow came from) have all gained weight at a surprisingly rapid pace. Diahreah (sp?) has also become normal for the time of year. I have also notice that all the animals coats have started looking better. It is to soon to see what the end result is going to be. I think I will have to wait until next year this time to see what "normal" for those cattle should be. My cattle I had prior are all doing well and have not had any change to speak of. Thats a good thing. Tells me that it isn't coming from here. Thats what the vet has concluded also.
Took a dose of ivomec plus to a friends place who purchased a steer from me out of the cattle in ? and gave it to him. He was wormed prior to leaving our property with regular ivomec. In a matter of days (Ivomec plus) his diahreah turned to what I consider normal for this time of year. He didn't have extreme diahreah but he is underweight to where I believe he should be (atleast close to the weight of his brother). He also has a bit more coat than I think he should have. I am doing a lot of work currently at my friends place and will be able to monitor him for a couple of month. It will be interesting to see if his weight gain matches the cattle here that got there shots from the day after finding the flukes.
If you all want me to update you I will. If not I will let this post go.
Thanks again for all the advice.
Double R
 
Double R Ranch":3t3mc0of said:
Howdy all,
Wanted to update you on what has happened since worming with the ivomec plus wormer.
All of the cattle that we still had from this particular breeder (that the butchered cow came from) have all gained weight at a surprisingly rapid pace. Diahreah (sp?) has also become normal for the time of year. I have also notice that all the animals coats have started looking better. It is to soon to see what the end result is going to be. I think I will have to wait until next year this time to see what "normal" for those cattle should be. My cattle I had prior are all doing well and have not had any change to speak of. Thats a good thing. Tells me that it isn't coming from here. Thats what the vet has concluded also.
Took a dose of ivomec plus to a friends place who purchased a steer from me out of the cattle in ? and gave it to him. He was wormed prior to leaving our property with regular ivomec. In a matter of days (Ivomec plus) his diahreah turned to what I consider normal for this time of year. He didn't have extreme diahreah but he is underweight to where I believe he should be (atleast close to the weight of his brother). He also has a bit more coat than I think he should have. I am doing a lot of work currently at my friends place and will be able to monitor him for a couple of month. It will be interesting to see if his weight gain matches the cattle here that got there shots from the day after finding the flukes.
If you all want me to update you I will. If not I will let this post go.
Thanks again for all the advice.
Double R
The only time we had problem with liver flukes was from cattle that came from the central valley (flood irrigated) when we lived in the Mojave and later when we moved to the central valley. That's been so long ago I don;t even remember what we used to treat them for it
 
Double R Ranch":36wonxqr said:
Howdy all,
Wanted to update you on what has happened since worming with the ivomec plus wormer.
All of the cattle that we still had from this particular breeder (that the butchered cow came from) have all gained weight at a surprisingly rapid pace. Diahreah (sp?) has also become normal for the time of year. I have also notice that all the animals coats have started looking better. It is to soon to see what the end result is going to be. I think I will have to wait until next year this time to see what "normal" for those cattle should be. My cattle I had prior are all doing well and have not had any change to speak of. Thats a good thing. Tells me that it isn't coming from here. Thats what the vet has concluded also.
Took a dose of ivomec plus to a friends place who purchased a steer from me out of the cattle in ? and gave it to him. He was wormed prior to leaving our property with regular ivomec. In a matter of days (Ivomec plus) his diahreah turned to what I consider normal for this time of year. He didn't have extreme diahreah but he is underweight to where I believe he should be (atleast close to the weight of his brother). He also has a bit more coat than I think he should have. I am doing a lot of work currently at my friends place and will be able to monitor him for a couple of month. It will be interesting to see if his weight gain matches the cattle here that got there shots from the day after finding the flukes.
If you all want me to update you I will. If not I will let this post go.
Thanks again for all the advice.
Double R
=====
Doule R,
Keep us updated.
Good info.
 
Yes, I've never seen one of these up close, but it looks like liver fluke. Some of the sites suggest Curetrem, which costs of $600/gallon for the "drench", but we're treating tanks with SCi, which kills the snails by the droves (the snails are the host for the parasite). I don't know about the treatment of hay or field grasses. We use the SCi in all our water sources as bactericide and algicide. The fact that it kills the snails is a bonus for us.
 
This is great information, MoGal. The SCi product we use is a "free copper ion" and is supposed to be 27 times more potent than the old copper sulfate technology...so you use much less. It's also a "free copper" so it has a much higher degree of potency with a much lower dosage rate. If you have any information on other copper products that can be used for both water and hay/grass, I'd love to hear more on it. On the SCi bottle it says "copper pentahydrate 19.8% solution".

MoGal":2m3cdmrt said:
I found this interesting.... perhaps copper sulfate is the answer.
the link if you want to read the entire article is here: http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/press/cattletop10.htm about 2/3 of the way down on the page.....
Copper and worms

I have not used any proprietary drenches for just on 30 years now. Copper sulfate, with various additions, was used for many years prior to the advent of artificial chemical drenches in the late 1950s. The copper was mixed with either carbon tetrachloride (a very poisonous cleaning fluid), lead arsenate (another dangerous poison) or nicotine sulphate, which was possibly the safest of the three. I very much doubt if the reported deaths were often due to copper poisoning.

Copper toxicity causes liver damage which, if not treated, is fatal. We found out that when copper is administered with dolomite, there is little risk unless the cattle have been grazing heliotrope or some other weed high in copper like Patterson's curse or St. John's wort; however, if they had, the chance of a worm burden would be virtually nil, because of the high copper content of all three.

According to the Department of Primary Industry in Queensland, the blood serum levels of copper in a bovine should be between 500 and 1,100 milliliters per liter, at which levels worm infestations would be unlikely. In all cases of suspected worm infestation, a count should be taken either by the vet, or as many farmers the world over these days do, examining the manure with a microscope (a school quality microscope will do).

Long standing copper overload can apparently be corrected by giving the affected cow dolomite on a permanent basis. This can be given with an injection of vitamin B15 (10 cc), Pangamic acid (10 cc) and vitamin C (20 cc) in the same syringe once a week. This has been tried in the field on farms where too much copper has been spread on the land. For immediate copper poisoning, give the beast a tablespoon of dolomite and vitamin C powder by mouth every few hours, and 10 cc of vitamin B15 with 30 cc of sodium ascorbate (vitamin C) in the same syringe by injection. This can be given every few hours, although a calf that I first did this work on recovered fully in an hour and a half and further doses were not necessary. Signs of copper poisoning are misery and a hunched up appearance — in effect, acute belly ache due to liver pain.

According to Justine Glass, black animals need about six times as more copper than white ones. Consult the section on copper for deficiency signs.

Initially several friends who ran cattle, horses, sheep or goats experimented using copper instead of proprietary drenches, with very satisfactory results. The only controlled experiment was performed with goats and the Depart ment of Agriculture did the tests. Half were given the latest state-of-the-art drench (not Ivermectin), and half were given the copper sulfate/dolomite/vitamin C dose. The results were equal — 100 percent clear in both cases.

When I first started using copper sulfate instead of proprietary drenches, I could not find any guidelines and Dr. Albrecht, whose works show that copper prevents worm infestations, does not mention dosage quantities. A retired vet lent me a copy of the British Veterinary Codex (1952) and I was able to work out amounts from that source. I had reckoned that monogastrics need about half the amount on body weight that ruminants require; however, work done by the University of Minnesota on ponies and copper requirements suggests that equines actually top the list as far as copper requirement or tolerance goes.

I have discussed running copper through the diet with various vets and at least one did not have apoplexy, but was genuinely impressed and interested because to use his exact words, "We have come to the end of the line with proprietary drenches." That was 18 years ago and the situation has not improved with the years.

-----------------------------

then this article on the research of the worms and if you want to read this entire article here is the link: http://www.k-state.edu/parasitology/cla ... ene07.html

but here are the recommendations and I find it odd that they recommend using copper sulfate on the field to kill the snails but recommend pharmaceuticals for the cattle...........

8. Diagnosis, Treatment and Management
1. Large, unembryonated eggs in feces
2. Triclabendazole has broad-spectrum activity against both adults and larval stages. Treated bait is effective in some areas to control flukes in wild populations
3. Rafoxanide kills immature flukes
4. Oxyclozanide kills adults fluke
5. Separation of cervids and livestock to prevent domestic animals from being heavily infected. Most infections in domestic animals occur as animals graze in contaminated wetlands
6. Removal of snails from buffer zones between cervids and livestock, which may include use of copper sulphate to kill snails or draining of some non-essential wetlands
7. Translocation of infected cervids from endemic areas into non-endemic areas should not be allowed
 
This is great information, MoGal. The SCi product we use is a "free copper ion" and is supposed to be 27 times more potent than the old copper sulfate technology...so you use much less. It's also a "free copper" so it has a much higher degree of potency with a much lower dosage rate. If you have any information on other copper products that can be used for both water and hay/grass, I'd love to hear more on it. On the SCi bottle it says "copper pentahydrate 19.8% solution".

MoGal":2e0dvbv8 said:
I found this interesting.... perhaps copper sulfate is the answer.
the link if you want to read the entire article is here: http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/press/cattletop10.htm about 2/3 of the way down on the page.....
Copper and worms

I have not used any proprietary drenches for just on 30 years now. Copper sulfate, with various additions, was used for many years prior to the advent of artificial chemical drenches in the late 1950s. The copper was mixed with either carbon tetrachloride (a very poisonous cleaning fluid), lead arsenate (another dangerous poison) or nicotine sulphate, which was possibly the safest of the three. I very much doubt if the reported deaths were often due to copper poisoning.

Copper toxicity causes liver damage which, if not treated, is fatal. We found out that when copper is administered with dolomite, there is little risk unless the cattle have been grazing heliotrope or some other weed high in copper like Patterson's curse or St. John's wort; however, if they had, the chance of a worm burden would be virtually nil, because of the high copper content of all three.

According to the Department of Primary Industry in Queensland, the blood serum levels of copper in a bovine should be between 500 and 1,100 milliliters per liter, at which levels worm infestations would be unlikely. In all cases of suspected worm infestation, a count should be taken either by the vet, or as many farmers the world over these days do, examining the manure with a microscope (a school quality microscope will do).

Long standing copper overload can apparently be corrected by giving the affected cow dolomite on a permanent basis. This can be given with an injection of vitamin B15 (10 cc), Pangamic acid (10 cc) and vitamin C (20 cc) in the same syringe once a week. This has been tried in the field on farms where too much copper has been spread on the land. For immediate copper poisoning, give the beast a tablespoon of dolomite and vitamin C powder by mouth every few hours, and 10 cc of vitamin B15 with 30 cc of sodium ascorbate (vitamin C) in the same syringe by injection. This can be given every few hours, although a calf that I first did this work on recovered fully in an hour and a half and further doses were not necessary. Signs of copper poisoning are misery and a hunched up appearance — in effect, acute belly ache due to liver pain.

According to Justine Glass, black animals need about six times as more copper than white ones. Consult the section on copper for deficiency signs.

Initially several friends who ran cattle, horses, sheep or goats experimented using copper instead of proprietary drenches, with very satisfactory results. The only controlled experiment was performed with goats and the Depart ment of Agriculture did the tests. Half were given the latest state-of-the-art drench (not Ivermectin), and half were given the copper sulfate/dolomite/vitamin C dose. The results were equal — 100 percent clear in both cases.

When I first started using copper sulfate instead of proprietary drenches, I could not find any guidelines and Dr. Albrecht, whose works show that copper prevents worm infestations, does not mention dosage quantities. A retired vet lent me a copy of the British Veterinary Codex (1952) and I was able to work out amounts from that source. I had reckoned that monogastrics need about half the amount on body weight that ruminants require; however, work done by the University of Minnesota on ponies and copper requirements suggests that equines actually top the list as far as copper requirement or tolerance goes.

I have discussed running copper through the diet with various vets and at least one did not have apoplexy, but was genuinely impressed and interested because to use his exact words, "We have come to the end of the line with proprietary drenches." That was 18 years ago and the situation has not improved with the years.

-----------------------------

then this article on the research of the worms and if you want to read this entire article here is the link: http://www.k-state.edu/parasitology/cla ... ene07.html

but here are the recommendations and I find it odd that they recommend using copper sulfate on the field to kill the snails but recommend pharmaceuticals for the cattle...........

8. Diagnosis, Treatment and Management
1. Large, unembryonated eggs in feces
2. Triclabendazole has broad-spectrum activity against both adults and larval stages. Treated bait is effective in some areas to control flukes in wild populations
3. Rafoxanide kills immature flukes
4. Oxyclozanide kills adults fluke
5. Separation of cervids and livestock to prevent domestic animals from being heavily infected. Most infections in domestic animals occur as animals graze in contaminated wetlands
6. Removal of snails from buffer zones between cervids and livestock, which may include use of copper sulphate to kill snails or draining of some non-essential wetlands
7. Translocation of infected cervids from endemic areas into non-endemic areas should not be allowed
 
We wormed all our cattle with Ivomec plus injectable and did a follow up booster due to our problems. All the cattle that came from that breeder (that we have left) are all easy keepers now, haven't had anymore masses or any symptoms that we were experiancing.
We will now continue to worm with the Ivomec plus to keep from having anymore problems with this if we did infect our land.
I will be butchering a steer come another 60 days of graining out. I will look threw the organs as I always do and will let you know if I see anything. I will do slides as well just to be sure.
Thanks to all for the help, advice and questions. Hope this will help others as well.
Oh and my neighbor who our creek runs threw has had NO problems with this so it appears to be an isolated case from a certain breeders cattle.
Double R
Oh and btw: we went threw the green grass season this time with no problems since treatment.
 
Down around Oakdale was the only time we had problems with liver flukes. We flood irrigated so I figured if anyone above us on the irrigation schedule had them we would have them.
When we had one farm we never had a problem but we moved to a different irrigation area and had them.
 

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