What happened? (possible wrong diagnosis)

[milkmaid]

Had a cow that, checking back through my posts, showed up with red urine and a depressed attitude on January 10th of this year. I went with the assumption that it was something logical like a urinary tract infection and followed the vet book's suggestion for high doses of penicillin, at ~90cc's per day for about 1 1/2 or 2 weeks. Can't quite remember off hand as I didn't write all that down.

Original post is here. http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17316

Well, she cleared up pretty quickly and looked fine. Took her off Twin Pen and she had ~ a 2 1/2 week milk withdrawal. LOL. She was about 160 days bred and we thought nothing more of it.

We dried her off at ~235 days after a preg check by my vet showed she was still bred and he felt the calf was alive, everything good, etc.

She had ~45 days of dry time, and calved Saturday. If you could call it that. Calf was dead, looked like it had been dead for quite some time, about like a 6-7 month fetus. Cow did go "full term".

Browsing through my vet books awhile back, I came across something in the Merck Vet Manual that I just mentally filed away for future reference. Table of "Common Causes of Red Urine in Cattle".

Hematuria
Clostridial infections
Malignant catarrhal fever
Anticoagulant poisioning
Urolithiasis
Cystitis
Enzootic hematuria (bracken fern poisioning)
Facial eczema (sporidesmin poisoning)
Oxalate poisoning (ethylene glycol)
Babesiosis

Hemoglobinuria
Postparturient hemoglobinuria
Leptospirosis
Water or salt poisoning
Brassica or onion intoxication
Chronic copper intoxication

Now, I don't know what all of those ARE, but I do know some of them, and I do know that a lot of the infections can be cleared with heavy doses of antibiotics. This cow was on high doses and I figure we probably cured any infection she may have had so that's not an issue.

However, I can't help but link the dead calf to the problem the cow had. The one that caught my eye was Lepto. Never had any personal experience with it so I'm not entirely sure, but I can't help but wonder if maybe the cow was exposed to Lepto and the calf died at that time. What's a Lepto "abortion" like? I know the cow was not vaccinated for Lepto OR any of the clostridiums. Maybe I made a wrong diagnosis - although I don't think there was anything wrong with the treatment choice we made.

Anyone have any comments on that? thoughts, opinions? I know we have some vets lurking on here, do you have any thoughts about the whole matter?

Thanks!
MM

 

[milkmaid]

Bump. Any other comments? It's been almost four months since we treated her, can they carry a dead calf that long? If it was actually 7 months in gestation when the fetus did die, then that brings up another question mark, because then it was ~2 months from the time we saw 'red urine' until the time when the fetus died, and then another ~2 months before "calving", right? Does that sound like the way Lepto can work, or not?

And if this actually was caused by Lepto, is this cow actually clean after that much antibiotic treatment, or is she likely still carrying it? Is culling the best option for this type of situation? Mind, she's a dairy cow so we could keep her around...but having a possible Lepto-carrier around doesn't sound like a good idea.

Not that I'm really even positive I have the right diagnosis now. Maybe it's something completely different. :? Anyone?

 

[cfpinz]

In the cases of Lepto that we have seen, the calf is delivered, "aborted", at around 6 to 8 months. We caught one cow trying to abort a few years back, wife pulled out a 7 or 8 month fetus ready to slip out the door. She took it to work and had it tested, showed positive for Lepto-Hardjo-bovis. We started vaccinating religiously after this, and have had very little trouble ever since. A lot of lepto abortions go unnoticed because the fetus is consumed by dogs, yotes, buzzards, etc. before anyone notices.

As far as treatment goes, I can't be of much help because everyone that has aborted here is now available for consultation at your local McDonald's. :shock:

cfpinz

 

[Roadapple]

If she had Lepto, she would probably have aborted, mastitis, hi temp, jaundice or yellowing of the pink membranes, especially around the eyes, vulva, gum, & wine colored urine, & anemia. Recovered animals appear dull & unhealthy. Lepto is very contagious, & can be spread not only to other animals, but also to man. The chief carrier is water. If an infected animal urinates in a stream or puddle and another animal drinks from it, or has a cut on it's foot or leg & stands in it, bingo. Wildlife are also a carrier. Bulls can spread it in normal breeding, & also in A-I ing. Vaccinate for all 3 strains. Any suspect should be isolated from the herd. Recovered animals can remain carriers.

 

[Roadapple]

Forgot to add that if she carried a dead fetus for 2 months, I don't think you'd have recognized what she aborted as a calf. Think you'd have had a d--n sick or dead cow on your hands. Always thought after a few day's dead a fetus would start rotting in 101.5 temperature. Course , there's a tiny little chance I could be wrong. I know I made a mistake on June 28, 1982.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Forgot to add that if she carried a dead fetus for 2 months, I don't think you'd have recognized what she aborted as a calf. Think you'd have had a d--n sick or dead cow on your hands. Always thought after a few day's dead a fetus would start rotting in 101.5 temperature. Course , there's a tiny little chance I could be wrong. I know I made a mistake on June 28, 1982.

thats right the cow would have became septic and died herself carrying a dead calf. whats strange is she went full term

 

[Vicky the vet]

I truly doubt that lepto abortions would hold for a couple of months, or that the calf would die a couple of months post infection. There are a few too many causes of hematuria/hemoglobinuria to just choose lepto. Get the calf tested if it's still around, and a blood test for titre is very accurate as to whether the cow has been exposed to lepto. And it's called LEPTOSPIROSIS, NOT LEPTOSIS. I'm a lot tired and so a bit like a female dog tonight...

 

[milkmaid]

OK, thanks all. :) I don't think the calf's still around...didn't think of having it tested. Would a blood test on the cow still show signs of exposure to lepto (if that is the case)...after this much time? And if it doesn't sound like lepto, then what would be the next most likely possibilities for this?

Cow is currently back on penicillin to prevent infection, as she retained the afterbirth... is penicillin OK to use again on this cow where we'd given her heavy doses before, or should we be concerned about cross resistance?

Cow is still "on feed" and looks OK otherwise. She did show up with mastitis in one quarter that I know wasn't there at dry off (dry treated with cephipirin benzathine) but it appears to be very sensitive to the systemic penicillin and IMM administration of Amoximast (amoxicillin) and it is clearing up. No culture result on it yet.

I know some calves can die and be mummified, and carried indefinetly, so the fact that the calf seemed to have been carried for awhile doesn't surprise me, just that I'd really like to know WHY this all happened. It's a bit odd and I don't like unexplainable problems.

 

[Beefy]

the first thing that pops into my mind when i hear red urine is always lepto and redwater. who knows what it was without a test but i'm wondering if the cow could have been infected and your treating her allowed her to prolong her pregnancy whereas she would have otherwise aborted right away? have no idea, just brainstorming.

 

[Double R Ranch]

Last year we had a cow "calve" a dead calf about a month early. We saw it right after she delivered it. Its insides were mush. It appeared as if the calf had been dead for a while inside of her. The sack when she started to pass it hours later was very bad looking. Not even close to a healthy color. Smelled horribly and would not pass. She sat here for almost a week. We kept a close eye on her and kept in touch with the vet. Finally shipped her off to auction when she jumped (placenta and all) several pannels and went crazy. Never did figure out what that was about.
Did appear that the calf was decomposing inside her. Not sure what caused it but hope to never have it happen again.
Double R

 

[dun]

Last year we had a cow "calve" a dead calf about a month early. We saw it right after she delivered it. Its insides were mush. It appeared as if the calf had been dead for a while inside of her. The sack when she started to pass it hours later was very bad looking. Not even close to a healthy color. Smelled horribly and would not pass. She sat here for almost a week. We kept a close eye on her and kept in touch with the vet. Finally shipped her off to auction when she jumped (placenta and all) several pannels and went crazy. Never did figure out what that was about.
Did appear that the calf was decomposing inside her. Not sure what caused it but hope to never have it happen again.
Double R

Was the whole mess kind of pink and frothy looking? If so you may be in for the worst ride of your life. Look up "foothills abortion" on the internet.

dun

 

[Double R Ranch]

Was the whole mess kind of pink and frothy looking? If so you may be in for the worst ride of your life. Look up "foothills abortion" on the internet.

dun

Thankfully no.
but thanks for trying

 

[milkmaid]

the first thing that pops into my mind when i hear red urine is always lepto and redwater. who knows what it was without a test but i'm wondering if the cow could have been infected and your treating her allowed her to prolong her pregnancy whereas she would have otherwise aborted right away? have no idea, just brainstorming.

Interesting thought Beefy. I have no idea either, though.

I spoke with my vet a little and he kind of shrugged it all off as just a fluke and that he didn't think he'd worry about it. Still... like I said, don't like problems that I don't have an answer for.

Anyone else out there have any thoughts?