What does it ALL mean?

[DOC HARRIS]

I was involved in a rather lengthy discussion a few days ago with a Commercial Breeder (?) concerning many of the factors necessary for successful Beef Production. He was on his high horse about the "new developments and research discoveries" which have been brought forth in recent years in the effort to assist breeders make a profit and improve their thinking about breeding Beef Cattle. He was one of the "Old School" thinkers who, literally and actually said, " If my Daddy and Gran'daddy could make a livin' with cows, why do we need all of this modern baloney which just costs more money?"

Well, all of you can imagine that stirred up my juices to say the least, and in the process of being very calm and very soft-spoken, I attempted to make him realize how stupid he really was, and asked him about his herd's cow size, (mature weights) in comparison with their BCS (Body Conditioning Scores), along with their Frame Scores. He gave me the Jean Luc Picard's "Star Trek-The Next Generation" glazed-eye look, and I realized that he was not on the same page with me - of which fact I was already aware! After a few exchanges of opinions, he realized he had to be someplace else, and disappeared into the salebarn crowd.

This entire episode caused me to wonder how many of my friends on the Board actually related a cow's body weight with their accompanying Body Conditioning Score and Frame Score when thinking about the "Cow Size" of their herd. :shock: :???: It is common occurrances at the sale barn to see mature cows come through weighing 1600 - 1800 lbs with a Body Conditioning Score of 2-4 (thin, angular and bony). Of course, their Frame Scores run 7 - 9, big, old lanky, worn-out mixed-breed Holsteins. It just stresses the importance of knowing ALL the factors of analyzing cattle, and NOT concentrating on ONE or TWO traits or conditions.

Our ideal mature (open) BEEF cow body weight of 1100 - 1350 lbs. must be balanced with a Body Conditioning Score of 5-6 and a Frame Score of 4-5, taking into consideration a 'breed-skeleton' size factor. Common sense goes a long way, also!

As a lot of the breeders on these posts have said recently , "Balance is the key to being successful in Beef Breeding - NOT single-trait selection."

Some of you may wish to elaborate on these thoughts.

DOC HARRIS

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

I think it is necessary to identify the few most important traits and establish them first, at least when you are starting from scratch. Things like fertility and getting live calves on the ground. Then when the basics are established, add one or two traits at a time, taking care not to sacrifice too much of those basics in the process.

If you can find a breeder or breeders who already have established in their herds the balance that you feel would work best in your area, if you can get your seedstock from them, you are years ahead of the game. That is why I heartily endorse private treaty sales for herd building versus sale barn. I think it is much better to walk among the herd, view the sire, dam, and siblings at a relaxed pace, with even a few days to consider what you are purchasing. This is what I did when I started my little herd. I went to Flying G Ranch for my foundation females, and to Richard Day for my first bull. There are varying opinions about the success or lack of it in my breeding program, but I do have fertile cattle that milk well and raise growthy calves that have good attitudes; and they do this on very much unimproved pasture. And though it has never been one of my primary goals, we've even had some moderate success in the showring locally.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Angus/Brangus-

I think that the term "Single Trait Selection" is sometimes misconstrued in it's strict interpretation. A beginning breeder in the business should certainly NOT select for one trait only! That is a formula for disaster. And when one's herd has been carefully molded and developed to a point of being what the breeder is attempting to do with it, - - - THEN is the time to REALLY concentrate on the selection processes - both in Bulls and females for replacement - either from one's own herd, or outside purchases. The perfect herd, (of which there is NO such thing) is now in the position of requiring extremely careful scrutiny in the selection processes - to PREVENT a mistake in overlooking a trait or characteristic that is already comfortably established in the breeding genetics of a herd - to avoid LOSING that trait - not in acquiring it in the first place.

In my opinion, THAT is why every producer should always avoid the single trait scenario. He must always be aware of what he has to avoid losing it. It would NOT be wrong to pick a single trait to improve your herd, but don't lose other traits by throwing out the baby with the bath water. You might have to LOWER your average herd milk EPD and increase your herd BW slightly to in order to improve Fertility and increase WW EPD's. Here you are working with at least four traits while attempting to improve Ribeye and Marbling. Throughout the entire scenario, you are juggling EPD's and Functional Traits like hot rocks.

Take a deep breath, and think MODERATION.

That is why BALANCE is the keyword.

Some breed associations have gone so far overboard (in my opinion) on certain "desirable" characteristics by establishing more and more EPD's that we find ourselves falling over our own feet trying to keep up with everything. You all know how strong a believer I am of EPD's, but, like everything else, they must be managed with moderation and intelligence, and carefully utilized with Phenotype selection and Functional Traits to procure and harvest, if you will, the rewards that proper breeding management will provide.

With EVERYTHING that the cattle producer requires in order to operate his business going out of sight insofar as costs are concerned, it is absolutely incumbent and mandatory that we do everything possible to increase our profits and reduce expenses.

DOC HARRIS

 

[EAT BEEF]

Just some random thoughts I'm not near smart enough to put together so they sound good.

Well it takes a long time to build a good cowherd.Alot of folks don't really want to put in the time or have the patience for it.They want a champion,curve bender,or just whats hot today.

Some parts of the country seem more devoted to building a maternal cowherd than other.

It is a such a fast paced world combined with no aparent stableization of inputs. Some may find it hard to commit to longer term projects,but also a good reason to have a well balenced cowherd.

As some of you may have figured out I really think most seedstock producers have dropped the ball running after fads and trying to be all things to all people,but at the same time when the customer just wants the biggest bull all the time why not give it to them.

If the comercial guy can still make a living he may not be as dumb as we all think. :idea:

All the new developments and e.p.d.s in the world won't do any good if you don't know how to balence them.Who knows how to use all this information or even has the time to try? I have learned way more about my cows just watching them than I have ever learned from some numbers someone came up with that has never even seen my cows.Sure e.p.d.s can help but they can't take the place of common sense.Just look at some of the sugar daddy sale books in the angus journal what are they doing :???:

How many people that come up with this stuff even have cattle :?:

Some people just make everything to hard. Once you have what you need just keep it that way :idea: If you feel the need to improve things work on your grass. :tiphat:

 

[novatech]

I believe people are placing way to much emphasis on adding genetics to their herd. Every time a new bull is selected for improvement, single trait or otherwise, you also will gain some unwanted genetics. Those genetics do not go away. They sit around waiting for another gene just like them self and pop up in a herd. As we do this year after year we end up with a truly uncontrollable genetic pool.
Careful and disciplined culling has a much better effect on the future of a herd, limiting the outside genetics as much as possible.
Of course I say this assuming one is already starting off with some pretty good cattle. If you are not then all the culling or adding will not help.

 

[RVF]

A very good post.

I have often been asked, which is more important conformation or EPD's. My answer is whichever is the poorest. In simplest terms, a beautiful cow that does on milk and rebreed on grass is of no use to me and likewise a cow with perfect EPD's that can not walk due to structure is of no use also.

So as said we must always look for the correct balance when selecting replacements (both male and female) and that balance will be different for all herds. I beleive you should select a bull that moves the cow herd in the direction you want to go. For example, if you are looking for more milk the bull would have higher milk EPD's. However, if you have lots of milk you would look for thickness both visually and EPD's if available.

I agree with Greenwillow. I always get a tour of a producers cow herd prior to looking at the bulls for sale. This gives me an idea of what the management style is and the quality of the cows. The you look at the bulls. If you find one you like, then you look at the dam of the bull. If the cows are managed in a way that is not compatible with my herd or the cow herd is not impressive, I never like any bulls on that operation.

Novatech, I like your approach of selecting within your herd. However, unless you have a large herd, you may find your gene pool becomes limiting. I think that effectively you are doing the same thing as I am, except you have a hard time finding another herd that has the management, or consistency and quality of cows that you are looking for.

Note, it usually takes me 2 to 3 years to find a herd bull that I am willing to use, and that includes bulls from my own herd.

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Total balance in the animal of all traits is the key. However, what you see is not always what you get (or it will reproduce).

"Statistics don't lie, but Statisticians do..." lol. EPD's are statistical things.

One of the best ways, IMO, to evaluate a possible purchase of an animal is to "walk among them" in their natural setting, look and observe its sire and dam, the sire & dam's offspring, as well as 2 to 5 generations back to look at mating strategies, offspring, etc. One can NOT accomplish this by buying Sale Barn cattle (what you see is what you get; looks can be very deceiving; and, looks may not be what you get).

Even then, with all the "ducks in a row", one can be lucky or not lucky. Recessive negative traits can pop up on any animal...this is why the word "cull" was invented...

To purchase an animal solely on EPD's and a photo of the animal (and perhaps seeing it "walk around the ring") only gives one "part of the story".

JMHO...

 

[Alan]

Nothing to add to this great post except thanks to Doc and all, very educational post. A good freind here recently turned the light on in my mind on the importance of balanced traits and not hanging your herd on one or two epd's. As stated before, for guys like me, just starting out (5 or 6 years..2 years serious), the key is finding or breeding cattle with good phenotypes, good traits that pass on, and cattle that work well in my environment. To do this, I think one has to be committed to a long term goal (years), don't lose focus on what you are after, but be able to adjust to get there and be willing to cull hard if neccassary. I figure I have 15 to 20 years to build the perfect herd..... but then again will I ever shoot an 18 in a round of golf?

Thanks for the post,
Alan

 

[I luv herfrds]

Very well thought out Doc.
since first coming to this board over a year I have learned so much on here from everybody. I still believe the only stupid question is the unasked one.

My husband was alot like that young man you talked to, but he is coming around, especially when I sneak the "New" in without his knowing.
Such as the new mineral program, new vaccine program and much more.
If I wasn't here and learning from so many I would still be in the dark ages.
Too bad that young man didn't get it.
Still won't agree with a certain person, but Doc I agree with you.

 

[grannysoo]

Thanks Doc. Good post.

 

[novatech]

A very good post.

I have often been asked, which is more important conformation or EPD's. My answer is whichever is the poorest. In simplest terms, a beautiful cow that does on milk and rebreed on grass is of no use to me and likewise a cow with perfect EPD's that can not walk due to structure is of no use also.

So as said we must always look for the correct balance when selecting replacements (both male and female) and that balance will be different for all herds. I beleive you should select a bull that moves the cow herd in the direction you want to go. For example, if you are looking for more milk the bull would have higher milk EPD's. However, if you have lots of milk you would look for thickness both visually and EPD's if available.

I agree with Greenwillow. I always get a tour of a producers cow herd prior to looking at the bulls for sale. This gives me an idea of what the management style is and the quality of the cows. The you look at the bulls. If you find one you like, then you look at the dam of the bull. If the cows are managed in a way that is not compatible with my herd or the cow herd is not impressive, I never like any bulls on that operation.

Novatech, I like your approach of selecting within your herd. However, unless you have a large herd, you may find your gene pool becomes limiting. I think that effectively you are doing the same thing as I am, except you have a hard time finding another herd that has the management, or consistency and quality of cows that you are looking for.

Note, it usually takes me 2 to 3 years to find a herd bull that I am willing to use, and that includes bulls from my own herd.

Primarily I use AI. This allows me to select from the same linage of what I already have. The only research I have to do is on the cow side. I use old semen stock with plenty of history to back it up. I have collect a lot of info through old magazines and more importantly old timers that can tell me what traits these old forgotten bulls passed on.
I also make frequent trips by the vet clinic. When I find an animal of the same breed I have I will find out why it is there. Afterward in is a simple matter of finding the animals pedigree on the assoc. site. By doing this I have been able to define those bulls that pass on bad udders, bad temperament, to large, etc. I have also been able to identify many bulls that pass on the traits I already have.
Building consistency is no accident.
There is another perspective on this genetic pool question. If one continues to always select for the same traits in all the bulls and cows selected then I guess you are still selecting from the same gene pool, in a way.
I sure wish one you computer geniuses on here would make a program for this. I enjoy it but my memory is just not what it used to be.

 

[Northern Rancher]

It would be interesting to give two young ranchers each a million bucks and tell them to have at it-one can ranch as 'modern' as possible and one can do it the old ways. I wonder who'd have his million plus some extra in a few years. The real bargains in the A'I business are the old proven bulls with a few hundred or thousand daughters out there-once they start heading to the back of the catalogue the sharper commercial and some purebred outfits pit in and use them hard. You can make good money in the cattle business without alot of tech-can all your cows that aren't wet at branding-ear notch any heifer calf whose mother you don't like-sort off your sorry calves then ship their mothers when they come up to bawl. If you want 1200 pound cows balance your ration to that weight and run your cows together-the welfare cases will weed themselves out. What we could really use is a 'COMMON SENSE' e.p.d for purebred outfits. We sell on a carcass grid and do very well but I don't worry too much about carcass E.P.D's you can pee away alot of money trying to improve one trait by 5 percent.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

It would be interesting to give two young ranchers each a million bucks and tell them to have at it-one can ranch as 'modern' as possible and one can do it the old ways. I wonder who'd have his million plus some extra in a few years. The real bargains in the A'I business are the old proven bulls with a few hundred or thousand daughters out there-once they start heading to the back of the catalogue the sharper commercial and some purebred outfits pit in and use them hard. You can make good money in the cattle business without alot of tech-can all your cows that aren't wet at branding-ear notch any heifer calf whose mother you don't like-sort off your sorry calves then ship their mothers when they come up to bawl. If you want 1200 pound cows balance your ration to that weight and run your cows together-the welfare cases will weed themselves out. What we could really use is a 'COMMON SENSE' e.p.d for purebred outfits. We sell on a carcass grid and do very well but I don't worry too much about carcass E.P.D's you can pee away alot of money trying to improve one trait by 5 percent.

NR-

You are exactly right! You have verified 100% my admonition to NOT choose and breed with "Single Trait Selections". This is NOT the "New Math!" It is not even the "Old Math!" It is just plain, old, Common Sense!

DOC HARRIS