What do you see?

[artesianspringsfarm]

When you look at this guy? http://horsebutteranch.com/cow.asp?Id=33

I noticed the interesting pedigree as he is sire of a bull in an upcoming sale I was looking at and thought it would be interesting to hear from the gurus what you think of his numbers, looks, or color of his toenails if you feel like it. What stands out to you. What do you like or hate?

 

[glacierridge]

TBH, I don't know enough about Angus numbers, I usually am looking at Simmental Sires and they vary slightly I think...
On cows I think his CE will be alright, but I'm unsure on heifers.

But judging a book by it's cover... he looks like a tank!
How big is he?!

 

[ALACOWMAN]

this one made the ''cut ''somehow... just the wrong one..http://horsebutteranch.com/cow.asp?Id=34

 

[ALACOWMAN]

id have to visit their ranch, since its a closed herd, and see what their doing first hand. might not be doing what 'i' need. you'd expect consistancy it their bulls. the bull you posted is a hoss though...

 

[Chuckie]

Did you see this forum? It is more people discussing the bull. It also has a side picture of him.
http://5barx.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5739

 

[Chuckie]

ALACOWMAN, that is a Wagan. :nod:

 

[robert]

Did you see this forum? It is more people discussing the bull. It also has a side picture of him.
http://5barx.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5739

You've got the wrong bull, the one in this thread is Horse Butte 6141 of 3116

 

[Lucky_P]

Looks good, doesn't he (6141, not the Falloon bull)?
Look at the environment he's in. If that's what your pastures look like, he'd probably be a good choice.

Now, looking at his epds(check out the current ones on the AAA site - those listed on the website aren't current), he's well below breed average for growth(WW, YW), has moderate milk(I like that), will probably decrease mature cow size, and his marbling and ribeye epds are seriously negative. His accuracies are pretty low, though, so the numbers may not tell the whole story.

He'll likely make cows that can rough it out on some pretty poor forage base(high $EN), but I don't know that he'll put pounds on the ground or carcass on the rail to suit you in NY. But he does have a following.

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

id have to visit their ranch, since its a closed herd, and see what their doing first hand. might not be doing what 'i' need. you'd expect consistancy it their bulls. the bull you posted is a hoss though...

ALACOWMAN, I could be wrong but I think they have pretty much changed directions at the original ranch, focusing on a commercial herd. You can see their philosophy and this guy's sire at this sale from 07 where the original bull I am interested in was sold: http://horsebutteranch.com/2007catalog.pdf

These genetics do seem to be tailored around what I want although the environment is certainly different.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

id have to visit their ranch, since its a closed herd, and see what their doing first hand. might not be doing what 'i' need. you'd expect consistancy it their bulls. the bull you posted is a hoss though...

ALACOWMAN, I could be wrong but I think they have pretty much changed directions at the original ranch, focusing on a commercial herd. You can see their philosophy and this guy's sire at this sale from 07 where the original bull I am interested in was sold: http://horsebutteranch.com/2007catalog.pdf

These genetics do seem to be tailored around what I want although the environment is certainly different.

thats the difference,, their bred for his enviroment... but theres bigger difference then cattle coming from here in the south to there or vice versa.. than what you would probably notice across the north east to west...grass's, climate ...

 

[robert]

Lucky P, look at his pedigree, you will notice that his sire is a full brother to his granddam, seriously line bred. His purpose is to replicate his genetics in a predictable fashion. EPD's reward outcross, close to the mainstream genetics, many of the 'high' numbered bulls available today owe more to the skill of amateur mathematicians than to cattle breeding. The people who discount this bull based on his epd's seem to recognize at the same time he represents a functional, desirable and true Angus type, yet they can't possibly use him because their numbers will go in the tank. So what?

Most people will say the most influential cow making sire of the past 25 years was N Bar Emulation EXT, why? Because he predictably fixed type and particularly udder and teat quality across most of the cattle he was mated to, sure some had some disposition issues but the majority would be long lived useful females. How could one bull do that? Look at his pedigree, Emulation 31 brother sister mating through his best son (5522) and a superior daughter (Primrose 2424). Prepotency.

 

[Lucky_P]

robert,
I'm well aware of what they're doing - and understand why.
No denigration intended toward the bull or the program - he's a hell of a good-looking animal, but at the same time, I'm not sure how well his calves would stack up in an eastern setting with plenty of feed and water, against some 'higher-numbers' animals.

The farm manager and I are often at odds on breeding decisions. She wants 'maximum weight at weaning' - she sees it as more $$ in her pocket. But, sometimes that comes at a production cost that may not be worth it - or at least not to me.
I'm always breeding with an eye toward the cow that a bull's daughters might grow into, so way-above-average WW is not the be-all/end-all to me. Getting harder all the time to find an Angus sire with Milk epd moderate enough to suit my taste - it's a production trait, not a maternal trait - and comes with a (feed) cost! I still look at $EN when choosing an Angus sire, and if I can find one that's above breed average (or even above zero), and meets some other important criteria, I'll certainly use him - though I'm not certain that it's even worth considering in our program.
We're selecting for increased marbling in our cowherd, and using terminal breed sires over those high-marbling Angus/Shorthorn influenced females. The low marbling/ribeye values on this bull would exclude him from consideration here, as a cow-maker, if nothing else did.

It takes all kinds of kinds, and not every one will work in every conceivable setting.

 

[Chuckie]

I hate numbers.

 

[Lucky_P]

chuckie,
They're a tool. To be used, or not. Not good or bad; how we use them determines that...
With low accuracies, they're just numbers, but as data on progeny are reported, they begin to have more reliability - but even then their perceived effects onlyhold over the population as a whole. If you're breeding 2, 3 or 10 cows to a bull - the performance of those small numbers of calves (also influenced by the dam's genetics) may not match up with what you expect - from the numbers.
I don't have the wherewithall to visit seestock producers in far-flung locations to look at the bull or his dam or daughters - or the management on that farm/ranch. Yes, I look at the photos, but also consider epds in my breeding selection.

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

but Lucky_P, if the situation is a true linebred pedigree (like this case), what do you need the numbers to say? I'm asking this as a serious question, not a knock. People rely on EPD's to try to make this bulls positives either enhance a dam's positives or decrease her negatives like an algorithim, but the dependability of really being able to accomplish that on outcrossing is so low because of the lack of prepotency that the whole EPD system, or systems in general had to be created, no? With linebreeding, if a sire is truly prepotent, you should know what you are getting, good and bad, making his EPD's kind of irrelevant.

 

[robert]

Not just line bred pedigrees, any herd that replaces itself from within and loses linkage with the mainstream, even if you continue to submit data into the system will see the numbers go in the 'wrong' direction (bw up, ww, yw and milk down) so the system discourages concentration of genetics within herds.

When related to individuals such as 6141 all the numbers are irrelevant, you can't say "I like his $EN but his growth is too low" because the $EN is based on the growth numbers.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

This thread is a good example of the understanding - or MIS-understanding of - how and WHY it is critically important to FOCUS on maintaining a Balance of EPD's, Traits, and the "functioning" of keeping ALL of them in BALANCE with reality! We, as human beings and Cattle breeders, are all different in our priorities and decision-making protocols, and that is as it should be.

Lucky_P, robert, and artesianspringsfarm bring to the table of discussions somewhat divergent questions and answers to this subject of "What do you see?" Their perspectives reflect their individual concepts of the subject acquired and accumulated from their education, training and experiences. How they utilize that knowledge and put into action those facts will determine to a great extent the successes they may achieve in breeding beef cattle.

HOWEVER, the bottom line here will ultimately be what it will be, and the PROFIT derived from their decisions in matings will reflect the successes derived from their BALANCING of traits, characteristics, EPD's, and their own priorities in making breeding decisions. This thread "What do you see" is a terrific example of why it is so important for cattle breeders to know WHAT they are doing in making breeding decisions - - and WHY those decisions will either work, or may not work!

I thank these three gentlemen for their thoughtful answers to this question. Just as a personal comment here - 40 years ago I was a member of a Discussion Panel with another livestock association, and the topic under discussion was "What You See - or Think You See - is Not Necessarily What You Get - Or Think You Get!" It involved several hundred people, and ultimately became a - how shall I say it? - VERY lively expressison of opinions!

Knowing what you "Think" or Think You Think" is crucial in making correct decisions in any Reproductive Program! "BALANCE here is the operative word!

DOC HARRIS