Using 2/3 Angus in a 3 sire rotation ?

[Stocker Steve]

Spoke with a guy who was using black angus and red angus as 2 of the 3 breeds in his rotation.

How much difference is there (aside from the color) ?

 

[Lucky_P]

Essentially no difference beyond coat color. Good cattle on both sides of the color divide... but the genetics all came out of the same pool.... and some of the reds, nowadays, have heavy influence of the popular black Angus bulls of the past decade or so.
But... in a crossbreeding program, it'd really not be much different from, say, using a Wye-bred bull and a GAR or Schaff-bred bull.... they're phenotypically different, but genetically pretty similar.

 

[Ky hills]

I haven't had much experience with Red Angus, so forgive me if I am off in my conclusions. It would seem logical that since they share the same origins, there would be nowhere near the difference that another breed would make. That being said, since they have been treated as two separate breeds here in the US for so long, maybe breeding them together would be like bringing in a near complete outcross in a purebred herd. I have noticed a few Red bulls in semen catalogs that have contemporary black Angus bloodlines in their pedigrees. 2/3 Angus, isn't exactly what comes to my mind for a 3 way cross, but I don't see anything wrong with that particular breeding.

 

[Muddy]

Have both red and black Angus in my herd and I see no difference in performance between RA X BA vs BA X BA. Not much hybrid vigor in RA X BA either.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I ran across the latest UMARC sire means today. BA had the highest carcass weight. RA had similar numbers, but not quite as growthy.

 

[Son of Butch]

Spoke with a guy who was using black angus and red angus as 2 of the 3 breeds in his rotation.
How much difference is there?

Essentially no difference...
not much different from using a Wye-bred bull and a GAR....they're phenotypically different, but genetically pretty similar.

Lucky_P hit the nail on the head and gave a very appropriate example.

No heterosis in red x black or vice versa.
But random mating of red to black or black to red would be expected to produce more balanced cows than
random red to red or black to black matings.
(Because of the phenotype difference between many of the reds and blacks.)

 

[Stocker Steve]

(Because of the phenotype difference between many of the reds and blacks.)

We have some MN reds here.
We also is some imported Dakota reds. My understanding is they use a lot of red composites out west that have some Saler in the mix.
What do you consider consistently different phenotype between RA and BA ?

 

[Lucky_P]

Steve,
If they're Category IA RA... they are 'pure' Angus... no infusion of other genetics since the Angus herdbook was closed.
RAA does have an 'upgrading' program, allowing you to breed up to 'purebred' status, from other breeds/crosses...but you can never reach 1A status with those.

Phenotype differences are probably more related to what the breeder has selected for - regardless of coat color - more so than because of coat color. If I were looking at black-and-white photos and couldn't ascertain color - or see breeder prefix... I don't know that I could say "That one's red, or That one's black."

 

[Son of Butch]

What do you consider consistently different phenotype between RA and BA ?

RA cows are a little bit shorter, a little bit wider and the udders are a little bit better than most BA cows.
And RA calf birth weights are slightly higher than most BA calves.

 

[Stocker Steve]

RA cows are a little bit shorter, a little bit wider and the udders are a little bit better than most BA cows.

That's the kind I like. Seems like you almost have to go red if you want a smaller frame AI bulls.

 

[Muddy]

What do you consider consistently different phenotype between RA and BA ?

RA cows are a little bit shorter, a little bit wider and the udders are a little bit better than most BA cows.
And RA calf birth weights are slightly higher than most BA calves.

That's what our purchased RA cows are. Good fleshing and great udders tho their calves' BW worries me sometimes